The EU's position on the ME conflict is anti-Israel/antisemitic ?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Then what of the Palestinians living in the territories Ned? It's pretty much political reality that there's an ethnic group with their own identity and a very strong nationalist tendency on the territories.
What solution, other than an uncompromising ideological standpoint, support of Israel against the Arabs based on historical rationalisation, do you offer for the Euros who are so wrong? Anything?

And who exactly are those "Arabs" you accuse of trying to destroy Israel? Most Arab countries have effectively washed their hands of the Pal mess long ago, only making noises to appear as caring about the Pals. The Pals themselves are never going to threaten Israel's existence, as proved quite amply by operation Defensive Shield.

Then why is it that all Cheney heard from Arab leaders on is Mid East trip was Palestine, Palestine, Palestine! The whole region is absorbed in anti-Israel hatred having been egged on by Arab propaganda and the hate preaching of Islamic clergy.

The Arabs are quite encouraged by European support. They increase their demands on Israel to the unreasonable, thus delaying peace.

In Europe, the anti-Semites are also encouraged. The attacks on Jews there are making world headlines.

It would be interesting to see how many Europeans would volunteer to be in Annan's international peace-"making" force. That would take true courage. If the force really tried to keep the peace, they would be blown up just as was the American marine HQ in Lebanon twenty years ago.

No one in Europe can seriously believe that the Palestinian leadership truly want peace and co-existence with Israel. They want blood.

Ned

[Natan]

Jaako: I admit I'm not a counter-terrorism expert, but it seems to me that these sorts of operations are necessary if you want to arrest terrrorists and confiscate but don't have enough control to safely send out police patrols.

[Jaakko]

Ned, of course the Arab nations want to be seen as playing together and for the Pals in the conflict, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it translates into political will to destroy Israel.

I also doubt that anti-semites are encouraged in Europe like you say. Disturbing attacks perhaps (not to mention shameful), but encouragement? Got a cite or anything?

As for that peacekeeper remark, I'm not sure I understand what relevance it has to the matter at hand.

[Jaakko]

Natan, I'm no expert either, but from my POV the current approach just doesn't work. In Northern Ireland things started improving when a more covert and restrained strategy was adopted, so I believe it should be attempted here too.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Dino - that's something I've been thinking about myself, but it's a bit problematic IMO. Most importantly, how do you make Arafat feel the pressure and not just those whom the aid was intended for?

Hamas provides most of the social welfare services in the Territories (That is the source of thier popularity.), so I doubt that there would be much of an impact on the common person if sanctions were placed on the PA.

[Roland]

AS:

"Any difference between his political views and those of the Foreign Minister"

I'd hope so. I don't know what Vedrine thinks of Israel in private, but the "annoynig troublemaker" view is quite widespread.

Ned:

Your history line is mostly correct, the legal conclusions are not. But what is a tad more important:

"Incredibly, Europe has now sided with aggression. The Arabs continue to make war on Israel and the Europeans have joined their camp. In order for there to be peace in the region, the Arabs have to be pressured to stop their aggression. Europe is on the wrong side in this conflict."

Excuse me but this is total bull****. The EU is not allied with the PA or Syria. We are not in the camp of Hamas. And we are not on either side of the conflict - if we are, how come we still have a preferential trade status for Israel ? Rubbish.

Chris:

So I finally managed to sqeeze some arguments out of you.

"Just this morning, a synagoge in Brussels was sprayed with machine gun fire."

Source ? Entirely possible, just haven't heard it yet.

"...your attitude is a chilling parall to the 1930s. You keep insisting that all is fine, yet attacks continue."

Nothing is all fine. I'm just going against the europhobic hyperbole. As to the 1930s, you know perfectly well that the situation is different. Or are you crying "1861" everytime a nutty US "militia" is in a standoff with the federal government ?

"Zionism was condemed by the UN as Racist."

By the GA, to be precise. Which has the exact value of "blah".

"Explain the attacks on jews throughtout Europe. I hear nonsense about it's "anger over Israel's actions". Crowds in Paris yelled "Death to Jews" (not Israelis)."

For them Israel and Jews are one entity. That large jewish "block" has always been a cornerstone of antisemitism. And of course arab antisemitism and violence is related to Israel's actions.

No idea what else you need to have explained. Maybe this article, "Intifada spurs rash of anti-Jewish acts in France" can help you:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=147602&contrassID=2&subContrassID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Before the recent surge, can you give me a source for antisemitic incidents France/US ? Show me. Can you explain why France and Belgium with large arab communities experience that violence, and Austria, that supposed hotspot of antisemitism, does not ? Where is a jew in the biggest danger of being murdered in a racially motivated attack? Israel ? France ? The US ? Show me, or quit the hyperbole.

"Stop being an appologist..."

Have never been one. But throw your trashbin after me, and you'll get some back. Simple as that.

[Roland]

Siro:

What were the limitations to palestinian sovereignty on that 90 or 95 % of the westbank + Gaza as suggested in the Barak's proposal ? Would you refer to the entity created that way as a "state" ?
Natan:

"Well, the issue then Jaako is whether terrorism is best defeated by fighting ir or not..."

What are the options ?
Sharon's way: Destroy and retreat - so you have anarchy and even more hatred.
Or reoccupy - the terror will adapt.
Or keep up the ***-for-tat.
Or do nothing.

All options suck.

My main problem with Sharon is that he refuses to negotiate with Arafat. No other pal leader can negotiate for them, and even he wanted with Arafat now the undisputed hero, he'd have zero support. In other words, Sharon refuses in effect any negotiations. He refuses to consider removing any settlement. He has no plan for a political solution. And I doubt he wants one.
Ned:

"No one in Europe can seriously believe that the Palestinian leadership truly want peace and co-existence with Israel. They want blood."

If the leadership had their way they'd destroy Israel. I have no illusions about that (and I wonder why Israelis and Americans seem to think Arafat is seen as a sort of saint in Europe), although there are enough on the Israeli side who'd wish to annex the westbank and kick the palestinians out. But I think Arafat is aware that he has to make a compromise. The problem is his judgment about where, and his idea that he can somehow bomb his way to concessions.

Dino:

"Hamas provides most of the social welfare services in the Territories (That is the source of thier popularity.),...."

So it would be a good idea to grant Hamas a full monopoly on this, to make it even more popular ?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Roland

What are the options ?
Sharon's way: Destroy and retreat - so you have anarchy and even more hatred.
Or reoccupy - the terror will adapt.
Or keep up the ***-for-tat.
Or do nothing.

All options suck.

My main problem with Sharon is that he refuses to negotiate with Arafat. No other pal leader can negotiate for them, and even he wanted with Arafat now the undisputed hero, he'd have zero support. In other words, Sharon refuses in effect any negotiations. He refuses to consider removing any settlement. He has no plan for a political solution. And I doubt he wants one.
Ned:

"No one in Europe can seriously believe that the Palestinian leadership truly want peace and co-existence with Israel. They want blood."

If the leadership had their way they'd destroy Israel. I have no illusions about that (and I wonder why Israelis and Americans seem to think Arafat is seen as a sort of saint in Europe), although there are enough on the Israeli side who'd wish to annex the westbank and kick the palestinians out. But I think Arafat is aware that he has to make a compromise. The problem is his judgment about where, and his idea that he can somehow bomb his way to concessions.

I am beginning to wonder if it isn't better for Israel to commit the unpardonable sin of expelling the Palestinians and letting them cool off somewhere else. I realize most people see this as worse than murder, but I don't, and I think an even more ominous outcome may be in store if a way out isn't found in the next few years.

[Eli]

Interesting numbers :

The number of Israelis killed in March : 131. 11 of them were soldiers killed in action. 3.8 Israeli civilians killed per day.


The number of Israelis killed from the 1st till the 14th of April, the most intensive days of operation "Defensive Shield" - 42. 24 of them were killed in action. 1.28 killed civilians per day.

The number of Israelis killed since April 15th until today, the days after operation "Defensive Shield" - 2. Both were killed in action. 0 killed civilans per day.

The numbers speak for themselves.

Source :

http://www.masada2000.org/oslo.html

(ignore the propaganda )

[Colonâ„¢]

Chris, I haven’t heard anything about an assault on a synagogue in Brussels, but I wouldn’t be surprised. There are enough machine guns and over-heated Moroccan youngsters around here to expect such actions.

I live in Antwerp, there are sizeable Muslim and (orthodox) Jewish communities around here. Synagogues around here a continuously monitored by policemen and armoured vehicles to protect them against assaults and there’s constant consultation between the Muslim and Jewish communities to prevent violence.

There was a pro-Palestinian protest march in Antwerp not so long ago that ended up in riots between a couple of hundreds of Moroccan youngsters and the police. (got to see some of the action myself) However, these are the kind people that are looking for a fight whatever the excuse, be it the Palestine or a couple of friends that weren’t allowed to enter a dancing. Not exactly representative for the entire Belgian society.

I've personally experienced plenty of racism against Moroccans, as well as racism against Negroes, Albanians, East Europeans or whatever, but rarely, and never until the conflict flared up, have I experienced anything that smacks of anti-Semitism.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Sikander
I am beginning to wonder if it isn't better for Israel to commit the unpardonable sin of expelling the Palestinians and letting them cool off somewhere else. I realize most people see this as worse than murder, but I don't, and I think an even more ominous outcome may be in store if a way out isn't found in the next few years.

This certainly the goal of Sharon : Fire the violance in occupied region to let no choice : expelling the pals.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Roland
Dino:

"Hamas provides most of the social welfare services in the Territories (That is the source of thier popularity.),...."

So it would be a good idea to grant Hamas a full monopoly on this, to make it even more popular ?

The PA, to my knowlege, already doesn't provide those services. So, I would guess that Arafat has already given them something approaching a full monopoly due to his own short-sighted greed.

[Bereta_Eder]

All this serious talk bores me. I come to Apolyton to be a fool not serious.

[Natan]

Roland, Sharon has refused to negotiate with Arafat until a cease fire is achieved. That's different from refusing to negotiate with Arafat.

[Ned]

Rolland said,

"Ned:

Your history line is mostly correct, the legal conclusions are not. But what is a tad more important:

"Incredibly, Europe has now sided with aggression. The Arabs continue to make war on Israel and the Europeans have joined their camp. In order for there to be peace in the region, the Arabs have to be pressured to stop their aggression. Europe is on the wrong side in this conflict."

Excuse me but this is total bull****. The EU is not allied with the PA or Syria. We are not in the camp of Hamas. And we are not on either side of the conflict - if we are, how come we still have a preferential trade status for Israel ? Rubbish. "

Rolland, What are Israel's views of the EU's position? Neutral? or biased towards the Palestinians?

On the legality issue, why, in your opinion, is Israel's founding of new settlements in the West Bank illegal?

Also, if you know, why is there no democracy in Arabia? Leaders, if elected, never seem to run for re-election. Am I wrong?

If the EU and the US are going to get involved in this mess, we really ought to try to craft a solution that includes true democracy in Palestine. Don’t you agree?

Ned