The EU's position on the ME conflict is anti-Israel/antisemitic ?

[Natan]

The problem I see here Jaako, is that these same sort of Islamist terrorists operate in other Middle Eastern countries which aren't experiencing warfare and which aren't ruled by non-Muslims. It seems that countries which fight the Islamists (Syria, Iraq, Algeria) do better than those which coddle them and hope for a moderate Islamist leadership (Jordan, Saudi Arabia).

[Ned]

The problem I have with European position is the same problem I have with Bush's position: Both steadfastly ignore that Arafat and the PA were attacking Israel with a reign of terror that was simply unbelievable and intolerable. Calling on Arafat and PA to put down terror was and is not only stupid; it is offensive to anyone who professes to believe in the truth. What was Israel to do under these circumstances? With the U.S. and the Europeans so steadfastly ignoring reality and doing absolutely NOTHING to help, Israel acted in self-defense.

I don't think Bush is an anti-Semitic. I simply strongly disagree with his position. Likewise, I strongly disagree with what I hear from Europe on this issue. Europe has taken sides - the wrong side.

I believe, just as does the Secretary General, that we need an international force to occupy the disputed territories. No one can or should trust Arafat. There are no "moderate" Palestinians.

Just a test, how many of you folks from Europe would like to be in that international force in the disputed territories? Would you trust the Palestinians not to begin shooting you in the back and suicide bombing your barracks just as once the Palestinian did against the British? The only time that region had peace was when it was part of Jordan. Perhaps the UN should call for a return of Jordanian sovereignty.

Ned

[Roland]

Chris:

"See Roland? It's not just me that believes this and is talking about it. Typical responce by you when confronted by this."

I specifically asked for "no idiotic trolls". For once try arguments and don't hide behind that line (which is also getting boring quickly). Of course it's not just you. But * surprise * you could still be wrong.

"Either you have forgotten, or you don't know, they NEVER were Palestian lands... Sorry to disillusion you, but LEAGALLY Israel doesn't have to give them squat...."

The westbank and gaza became parts of Jordan and Egypt, and both countries (Jordan explicitly, Egypt concludently) have given up their claim in favour of the Palestinians as represented formerly by the PLO and now by the PA.

Dino:

"...but to argue that Israel lacks the right to defend itself, as the EU seems to be doing, is beyond foolish."

Solana has explicitly supported the right of Israel to defend itself. That does not mean there are no limits to that right, or that doing everything you can or even may is automatically good.

Ned:

"Both steadfastly ignore that Arafat and the PA were attacking Israel with a reign of terror that was simply unbelievable and intolerable."

That is not ignoredm it's perfectly clear. But it also clear that Israel is conducting the illegal settlement policy. And that you can't put all the blame on Arafat, because while Barak offered 95 % or so of the westbank, there were several strings attached to that. I think Arafat should have taken the deal nonetheless, but that's another issue.

Many Israelis and their ardent supporters think Israel is 100 % right. Accordingly, they see the EU as biased. But the Pals see themselves as 100 % right, and for them the US and the EU are baised in favour of Israel. With the "who's right" issue, people can go on killing each other for the next thousend years.

AS:

Any link for that newsweek claim ?

[Roland]

Tried newsweek, got directed to MSNBC, and found:

The French government?s ambassador to Britain recently blamed much of the world?s troubles on ?that ****ty little country Israel.?

In a ravingly pro-Israel opinion piece without further source, or giving place or time other than "recently".

http://www.msnbc.com/news/738341.asp

Two really interesting pieces:

German foreign minister about antisemitic undertones in the european debate:

http://www.n-tv.de/3006033.html

And an interview from Haaretz:

http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154753&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=154753

Le Pen's triumph: a message to Muslims to keep Le Pen's triumph: a message to Muslims to keep quiet
Roger Cukierman, president of CRIF, the Representative Council of Jewish Organizations in France, talks about the significance for Jews of the rise of Jean-Marie Le Pen


"Le Pen's success is a message to Muslims to keep quiet, because he is known as someone who has always been opposed to Muslim immigration," Cukierman said after the first election results were disclosed. The meaning of Le Pen's success, he added, "is that the next government will have to put great emphasis on the struggle against [all forms of] violence ... including violent anti-Semitism."

....

Thus, for example, when Cukierman analyzes Europe's problematic relations with Israel, and tries to explain why they differ so strikingly from Israel-U.S. ties, he does not rely on theological references to long-standing Christian hatred of Jews. His explanation contains little of the abstract concepts which intellectuals adore. Instead, Cukierman speaks about simple interests. "Europe's inclination toward the Arab side," he explains, "derives from two simple interests. One is the current, large presence of Muslims in Europe's population. In France, for example, some 10 percent of the population is Muslim. The second is oil. America has a greater reserve of independent energy sources, and so it allows itself a wider measure of support for Israel."

"Yet at the same time," the CRIF leader adds, "there can be doubt that there is a factor of public opinion that is fashioned by the media. The media are not influenced by the Arab electorate, nor by oil tycoons. Media are based on images; and images of Palestinians - what can you do - are a lot `better' than those of Israelis. They can supply pictures of a pregnant woman being held at a checkpoint, or of held-up emergency medical teams, or of Arafat sitting by candlelight. These are pictures which Israel cannot deliver."

...

Backtracking somewhat, the CRIF leader suggests that the sheer passage of time, rather than recent discussions about the Holocaust, might be behind shifting European views of Jewish issues. He explains: "The Holocaust happened 60 years ago; and here are the Jews proving nowadays that they too act brutally; and thus the Jews are no longer in a situation wherein they can preach morality. The passage of time has apparently taken its toll; and so were it not for the campaign to restore Jewish property, Europe would stop feeling guilty and `return to normalcy.'"

Two conditions must come about, Cukierman says, before the current wave of anti-Semitism can be stopped. "If an end comes to the war in Israel," he says, "it will be easier to attain peace between Jews and Muslims in France. The second thing is that the Muslims, who are very strong, need to organize their power in a constructive political fashion. This hasn't happened up to now."

...

In the absence of a Muslim organizational structure in France, Cukierman says, "a few moderate declarations have been made by some important, non-radical imam preachers, such as the chief imams of Paris and Marseilles. But the vast majority of statements, even ones which contained denunciations of terror, had all sorts of problematic comments that ruined everything. For instance, there were declarations that appeared to repudiate violence and anti-Semitism - after making such denunciations, the speakers went on and attacked Jews harshly."

Cukierman does not hold back criticism of leftist members of France's Jewish community, including one of his predecessors at CRIF's top post, Theo Klein, who refused to take part in a large rally organized by the French Jewry two weeks ago, to protest double standards in responses to anti-Semitism, and express support of Israel. These leftists chose to stage a simultaneous rally which was limited to opposition of anti-Semitism.

"I said [at the time] that while France suffered from anti-Semitism, there had not been a single Jew killed in these incidents, whereas 125 people were killed in Israel in the month of March alone. Thus, I felt that decency compelled us to express support for Israel. The fact is that our constituency voted with its feet: About a third of French Jewry, some 140,000 people, took part in this rally. Only 1,000 people turned up for the left-wing demonstration."

Cukierman admits that the wave of anti-Semitic incidents has stirred real worries about the future of Jewish life in France. "If the war in Israel continues, I anticipate that we will have a problem [in France], unless the Muslim community turns into a constructive force," he says. At any event, he doesn't foresee a wave of immigration to Israel: "At least not for the time being," Cukierman says. He explains: "We are very well integrated in France's population, so I don't anticipate a wave of aliyah [immigration to Israel] at this stage. In any case, the Jewish leadership does not intervene in this question."

Worth reading it in full length...

[Eli]

Berlin's police reccomends Jews not to walk with Kippas on the street.

[Rogan Josh]

Just yesterday, I had lunch with an Israeli Jew. I asked him if he felt safe here in France with the recent vote for Le Pen and all the 'anti-semitic' rhetoric in the media recently.

He didn't understand what I was getting at. He has never personally witnessed any anti-semitism in France at all. He has not been discriminated against and says that people are very friendly and sympathetic. He said they show nothing but concern and understanding when talking about the ME crisis.

He also pointed out that he does not approve of the Sharon government in Israel and thinks the recent incursions do more harm to Israel than good (although he means this from a Jewish perspective - that it will not help Israel to be safe - he is not very sympatheic to the Palestinians).

One final point (not from my friend): anti-zionism is not the same as anti-semitism. To suggest that euopeans are racist (which is basically what anti-semitism is) because they disapprove of the actions of the Israeli government is outrageous and ridiculous. Are Americans who disapprove of Zimbabwe's move away from democracy recently being racist against blacks? Was the toppling of the Taliban in Afghanistan anti-semitism against muslims? Of course not!

[Urban Ranger]

Since old lies are being rehashed, I respectfully submit this link that contains a lot of information to counter Israeli propaganda, particularly about Barak's Camp David offer.

This is an excellent site presenting some Israeli dissidents' views. Assaf Oron's piece "An Open Letter to Jewish Americans" is particularly interesting.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Eli
Berlin's police reccomends Jews not to walk with Kippas on the street.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154995&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

I took a look at the Berlin state homepage and the police page, and a search turns up no "Lars Sunman" or "Sunman". No idea what to make of it as of yet....

http://www.berlin.de/home/Land/Polizei/

[Akka]

This endless discussion leads to nothing.
If people can't understand that Europe blame Israël because it's acting like barbarians over Palestinian, then never mind, believe what you want. I'm not feeling keen on arguing with blind people that see only what they want to see.

I just have to say I'm positively SICK of the worn shield of anti-semitism as soon as you disagree with Israël. This kind of stupid amalgam is only good to alienate you people.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Eli
Berlin's police reccomends Jews not to walk with Kippas on the street.

I agree with Roland, even the official site of the Jewish Community in Berlin (link below) does not mention it. I wanted to ask them directly in their forum, but it seems down currently.

http://juedisches-berlin.de/ (available in both English and German)

I´m also sure it would be a big story in German media too, but currently I cannot find something about it.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Roland

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154995&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

I took a look at the Berlin state homepage and the police page, and a search turns up no "Lars Sunman" or "Sunman". No idea what to make of it as of yet....

http://www.berlin.de/home/Land/Polizei/

Let's see how it develops.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Eli


Let's see how it develops.

[Roland]

Berlin police now has a press release on this. It was an interview conducted with someone from the LKA (state investigation office), who said in a radio interview upon being asked directly about this:

http://www.berlin.de/home/Land/Polizei/Presse/archiv/04949/index.shtm

Personen, die sich im Stadtgebiet bewegen, unkontrolliert will ich mal sagen, und eben nicht prominent sind und villeicht durch ihren Glauben auch nach außen hin manifestieren, dass sie Orthodox sind, sind natürlich erkennbar. Und insofern leider nicht in allen Fällen schützbar. Ich hätte mir ein paar Verhaltensregeln, die ich kundtun könnte. Ich kann mir aber vorstellen, dass ich dadurch unsere orthodoxe Mitbürger verletzen würde in ihrem Glauben. Natürlich wäre es ein probates Mittel, es nicht nach außen zu zeigen, also weder durch Bekleidung noch durch Symbole, durch die kippa oder ähnliche Gegenstände, Davidstern natürlich. Jedoch ist das ein schwieriges Unterfangen, gerade wenn man sein Glauben nach außen manifestieren möchte. Insofern wäre das ein Mittel und jeder mag prüfen, ob er als ein solches für sich als tauglich erachtet.

= People who move in the city, unsurveilled, so to speak, who are not prominent and may manifest their faith, that they are orthodox, can of course be recognized as such. And unfortunately we cannot protect every single one. I'd have a couple of recommendations that I'd like to tell. Yet I can imagine that thereby, I might hurt orthodox citizens in their religious feelings. Naturally it would be simple not to manifest your faith, like through clothing or symbols, the kippa, or similar things, like the star of david, of course. Yet this is a delicate issue, if you particularly want to show your faith. So it would be a possible way, yet everyone has to decide for himself whether he considers this appropriate or not.

[Dr Strangelove]

Does Le Pen's strong showing in the election demonstrate that the current French government is out of step with the feelings of the people with regards to the ME conflict?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Does Le Pen's strong showing in the election demonstrate that the current French government is out of step with the feelings of the people with regards to the ME conflict?

If you can believe the French, his strong showing is largely due to a quirk of fate and not the result of any skinhead tendency emerging in French politics.