Europe Heard From

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Roland
The issue of Israel in the 1949 borders and the settlements in the 1967 conquered territories shouldn't be mixed up.

Israel could only take on that land by either expelling the palestinians, or turn all Israel into South Africa. Otherwise the demographics would kill the jewish state.

The crucial water issue is not so much with the PA (IIRC only some small areas south of lake Genezareth) btw, but with Syria and the Golan heights.

And they certainly had the military muscle to expel anyone that they chose to.

I'll quote from 'The Middle Eastern Environment' by Eric Watkins.

In bilateral talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the issue of water has been the thorniest factor. Since the water resources of the Occupied Territories have been over-exploited for a long time - as much as 200 million cubic metres/year - many writers believe “it is water that determines the future of the Occupied Territories and thereupon will determine peace and security”. In a final settlement, Israel would have to give up the West Bank which provides about 25 per cent of its fresh water supplies and gives it control of the southern portion of the Jordan River. But Israel seems unlikely to agree to this. The concept of “soft borders”, initiated by Israel’s Foreign Secretary, indicates that Israeli leaders are not ready to return water resources of the West Bank. Instead, they see “soft borders” as “the only way to equitably solve the problem of distributing water, and the most efficient way to develop agriculture and industry that can compete successfully in world markets”. There is no doubt that such a development depends on having access to more water supplies. Extensive economic co-operation between the Israelis and the Palestinians played an important role in the joint Declaration of Principles, signed on September 13, 1993. Needless to say, however, co-operation implies sharing and sharing means that some parties will at times be worse off than they now are. This is what neither the Israelis nor Palestinians are ready to accept. The question now is whether to treat the water resources as a “zero-sum game” or as a means to make all parties much better off. Multilateral negotiations may hold the solution to this question.

The water within the Occupied Territories are significant, but over-exploited. The 25% of its water sources within the West Bank is certainly a sticking point for the Israelis with good cause, and little option.

If nuclear driven desalination were a viable option, then this situation would almost certainly be alleviated and peace would be a much more viable.

Water is probably THE sticking point in all of this conflict for all of the other rhetoric.

[Jon Miller]

what snapped is that Israel was finally ready to deal

Jon Miller

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Roland
Too muted, yes.

Do you have any ideas on the reason for this?

The PA has first been tolerating the attacks; the Al Aqsa stuff that seems to be tied directly into the PA via Fatah is a rather recent phenomenon.

I will grant you that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is apparently a recent phenomena but you are forgetting at least one other Fatah terrorist wing that has been in existance for a lot longer than that: Tanzim.

Silence ? Like the Fischer mission after the discotheque bombing?

Silence in comparison to the vociferous criticism being lobbed at Isael but EU governments and what appears to be substantial numbers of thier respective populations.

[MrBaggins]

Israeli Water Resources

JFYI

Table 1 Israel’s water supply sources and consumption for 1990/1 (Source: Zarour, 1993)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source Million cubic metres
Israel 745
Golan Heights 280
West Bank 415
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan 215
Total 1,655
Israel annual consumption 1,655

[Roland]

DinoDoc:

"Do you have any ideas on the reason for this?"


Frog in hot water syndrome, maybe. With the gradual escalation it is difficult to say at some point "enough, it's curtains for aid now".

"... one other Fatah terrorist wing that has been in existance for a lot longer than that: Tanzim."

Question is what they have been doing. AFAIK their domain is a sort of guerilla war in the occupied territories, not suidice bombings in Israel. Although that Al Aqsa stuff may well be related to them....

"Silence in comparison to the vociferous criticism being lobbed at Isael but EU governments and what appears to be substantial numbers of thier respective populations."

Silence in what is reported, maybe ? Condemnation of palestinian terrorism isn't really much newsworthy, condemnation of Israeli actions is. Especially in the US media.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Roland
Silence in what is reported, maybe ? Condemnation of palestinian terrorism isn't really much newsworthy, condemnation of Israeli actions is. Especially in the US media.

Incidentally, don't you think, if the Arab governements and media would start criticizing the killing of innocent Israeli's as well as they have Palestinians, then we likely wouldn't be in the same mess?

[Jack the Bodiless]

Silence in what is reported, maybe ? Condemnation of palestinian terrorism isn't really much newsworthy, condemnation of Israeli actions is. Especially in the US media.

Good point. Because it "goes without saying" that blowing people up isn't good, it probably "goes without reporting" even if somebody bothers to say it.

And it's also worth considering that criticizing the living is more newsworthy than cursing the dead. The suicide bombers aren't listening anymore.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
And it's also worth considering that criticizing the living is more newsworthy than cursing the dead. The suicide bombers aren't listening anymore.

The organization (PA) which supports and praises them is though.

I just found it curious that there were no mass rallies in Europe or governmental actions, that I heard about, critical of the tatcics the PA was using to further its war aims that equal the amount of criticism of Israel we witness today comming from Europe. I would be most appreciative if Roland or you could point me to such actions.

[Roland]

"Incidentally, don't you think, if the Arab governements and media would start criticizing the killing of innocent Israeli's"

If the arab media would report anything other than dumb**** propaganda, it would be a huge step forward.

"I just found it curious that there were no mass rallies in Europe or governmental actions...."

There was a mass rally in Paris. What do you mean by "actions" ?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Roland
But european economic interest in Iraq is similarly limited, maybe apart from one streak in France

So my shot in the dark hit home. I mean who else would buy French biotech equipment?

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Eli


There is nothing like a bit of anti-semitism to remind people that they are Jews and that they are in Exile.

And in the moment Jewish populations around the world(and in this specific case, France) realize this, they start returning to Israel.

Since, France, as you say it, is the country in europe with the most important jewish "community".

They must like very much their country to accept to be daily illtreated by thier non-jewish fellow-citizens...

As the anti-semite act you speak, their existed just do the pals/israel situation.

Stop your anti-european bull****, Eli.

[Bereta_Eder]

Err wasn't France who staged a massive pro-israli demonstration not so long ago?
Didn't you see that Eli

[Chris 62]

Re: Chocolate ?Simpsons quote, thought you might know it

Originally posted by Roland
Please darling show me a call for "capitulation".

Though I think your a nice fellow, I'm spoken for dear boy, please releave your fantasies elsewhere.

Or does "that the Pals can't bomb their way to a state, and Israel can't bomb its way to peace and security" a call for capitulation in your twisted mind ?

The only thing twisted is your polyanna view of the world.
When did the jews start the current operation, and why?

As long as you seriously think there is a war on terror going on, rather than a "war" on "terror", this is an appropriate counterquestion.

Air must be pretty thin on that mountain in Bavaria your on, it seems to have cut off your oxygen.

Well I guess I'll get a couple beers, my Krompn, and look for a jew to kill. If that makes you happy....

Funny, guys with Arnold accents always seem to enjoy that.
I wonder why?

Now that your silly stereotype is served, you may consider that most attacks happened in france, which has the largest jewish and the largest arab community in europe, and the latter having well-organised islamist cells related to Algerian groups like GIA.

Silly stereotype...yet none of that is happening in the USA, only in Europe...

Or do you really think there is more antisemitism in France than in Austria, Britain, Sweden or the US ?

See above answer, Mein herr.

Apart from the Sabrah/Shatillah issue ?

As I continue to tell Irran, that is an accusation that was investigated and found to be without merit, but feel free to keep repeating Hamas propaganda, just proves my point about bias.

[qoute]Attacks against PA police installatians.
Attacks against PA administrative structures.
Attacks against civilian infrastructure (sewers, airport etc).[/quote]All all the time, armed men, who wern't supposed to be armed or there, fired back...wonder what they were doing there?

"Liquidations" of supposed terrorists.

Your the lawyer, burden of proof rests with you, prove that accusation.
And good luck with that.

And I still give you the benefit of the doubt there that civilian casualties were not accepted or sought, and that the reports about targetting journalists and ambulances in the recent attacks are still not fully confirmed.

Irael having problems with ambulances....must be because three in random stops (the red cresant kind) had explosives and mutitions in them.
How unsporting of the Jews to not allow the PA to summle arms and explosives in ambulances, you would think they were barbarians.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Err wasn't France who staged a massive pro-israli demonstration not so long ago?
Didn't you see that Eli

Yes last sunday.

In three days we had 3 demonstrations :
1. Pro-palestinian
2. Pro-Israel (bigger than the previous)
3. Pro-peace

Of course, french only support pals, it's well known.

[Az]

Zobo , no need mentioning that , we knew that for a long time now.