Europe Heard From

[Ecthy]

You'd be surprised, DD

ZZW - Eli is just a little child. He's growing up in a sick nationalist culture, and he learns to do their polemy well.

[Eli]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
You don't surprise me, Eli ...

There is nothing like a bit of anti-semitism to remind people that they are Jews and that they are in Exile.

And in the moment Jewish populations around the world(and in this specific case, France) realize this, they start returning to Israel.

[el freako]

Re: Europe is heard from, yet again

Originally posted by DinoDoc

EU Parliament votes for sanctions against Israel
By Herb Keinon

The resolution - which condemns suicide bombings - also condemns the "military escalation pursued by the Sharon government," and the "oppression of the Palestinian civilian population by the Israeli army."

Victor Harel, head of the Foreign Ministry's Western Europe department, said the resolution is "mistaken" and "one-sided," and will only serve to distance Europe further from an active role in the diplomatic process.

Interesting how Israel sees condemnation of the suicide bombings and condemnation of the 'millitary escalation' and 'oppression of the Palestinian civilian population' as 'one-sided'

I must therefore assume that Israel would want us to cheer on their invasion of territories that they handed regardless of any civilian casualties, whilst condemning the terrorist attacks.

I think that the Israeli governments actions count as 'state terrorism' and as such it holds only slighty higher moral ground than the Palestinian Authority.
It has invaded territory that it said it had withdrawn from and I don't believe that most of the 'millitants' there are terrorists, they are just patriotic palestinians defending their homes from an invading aggressor - how many posters here would not do likewise?

If Israel withdraws and imposes it's own 'peace settlement' on the Palestinians without their approval (which should be gained by a referendum on the deal) then all Israel has done is store up an even bigger rebellion for itself 5-10 years down the road.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Re: Europe is heard from, yet again

Originally posted by el freako
Interesting how Israel sees condemnation of the suicide bombings and condemnation of the 'millitary escalation' and 'oppression of the Palestinian civilian population' as 'one-sided'.

I think the reason that they see the resolution as one sided is that they find the timing of the half-hearted condemnation more than a little suspect in that Isael has been suffering from suicide bombings for more than a year with little more than silence from the EU.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Name one terror act carried out by Sharon.

In his personal life?

What about the genocidal masscres in Sabra and Shatila? He was the general in charge.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/drbenalofs1.html

http://aztlan.net/theaccused.htm

http://www.isreview.org/issues/17/Ariel_Sharon.shtml

--

Of course the humilation that the Israeli soldiers are trying to put Palestinian innocents through can also be considered a form of terrorism. Destroying people's houses for no reason. Of course, their worst mistake was to do it to an American living in the West Bank, because she could get the ear of CNN.

[Faeelin]

Considering what China does to its muslims, and its other citizens, I can only denounce the European hypocrisy for a pathetic sham.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah! They should be as consistent as the US... especially with respect to Cuba and China policy .

[Jack the Bodiless]

The reason for Europe's stance is pretty straightforward: a reluctance to blame the innocent majority of the Palestinian population for the action of a handful of terrorists.

The Israeli army, however, is a tool of the Israeli government, and hence of the Israeli population.

Both sides are killing innocent civilians. But only one side is doing it with forces that are clearly controlled by a government.

[Roland]

Dino:

"The EU appeared to be fairly muted during the prior 18 months of Palestinian terror attacks in Israel proper."

Too muted, yes.

"However, it is based on the somewhat obvious evidence that the PA directly supports terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and isn't a weak regime unable to do anything to stop it."

The PA has first been tolerating the attacks; the Al Aqsa stuff that seems to be tied directly into the PA via Fatah is a rather recent phenomenon. It was the same time though that Israel escalated military action and continued the illegal and fascist settlement policy - with the tacit backing of the US. It's a quagmire... But for the issue, the EU position has been all along that the Pals can't bomb their way to a state, and Israel can't bomb its way to peace and security.
"France? Germany? Italy?

The US, of course. But GP is right, it's fungible, and the proceeds are under UN control. But european economic interest in Iraq is similarly limited, maybe apart from one streak in France that seems to see Iraq as a counterweight to the US puppets Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia... or rather, percieved puppets - sometimes it seems it's the other way round....

"...that Isael has been suffering from suicide bombings for more than a year with little more than silence from the EU."

Silence ? Like the Fischer mission after the discotheque bombing ?

[Roland]

Chocolate ?

"How is calling for Israel to capitulate to terrorism "resonable"? "

Please darling show me a call for "capitulation". Or does "that the Pals can't bomb their way to a state, and Israel can't bomb its way to peace and security" a call for capitulation in your twisted mind ?

"Typical non-sequitor responce."

As long as you seriously think there is a war on terror going on, rather than a "war" on "terror", this is an appropriate counterquestion.

"Yes, we are silly that way, we seem to be disturbed by Jew bashing and murder."

Well I guess I'll get a couple beers, my Krompn, and look for a jew to kill. If that makes you happy....

Now that your silly stereotype is served, you may consider that most attacks happened in france, which has the largest jewish and the largest arab community in europe, and the latter having well-organised islamist cells related to Algerian groups like GIA.

Or do you really think there is more antisemitism in France than in Austria, Britain, Sweden or the US ?

"Name one attack he ordered."

Apart from the Sabrah/Shatillah issue ?

Attacks against PA police installatians.
Attacks against PA administrative structures.
Attacks against civilian infrastructure (sewers, airport etc).
"Liquidations" of supposed terrorists.

And I still give you the benefit of the doubt there that civilian casualties were not accepted or sought, and that the reports about targetting journalists and ambulances in the recent attacks are still not fully confirmed.

And on a broader level the settlement policy.

GP:

"False moral symmettry. Like those during the Cold War regarding US and USSR. Arafat is definitely more of a bad actor than Sharon."

Tough call. I'm not at all sure which one is worse.

"why not call Bush a terrorist also..."

Well that's another issue....

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
The reason for Europe's stance is pretty straightforward: a reluctance to blame the innocent majority of the Palestinian population for the action of a handful of terrorists.

The Israeli army, however, is a tool of the Israeli government, and hence of the Israeli population.

Both sides are killing innocent civilians. But only one side is doing it with forces that are clearly controlled by a government.

I fail to see the difference between popular governments waging popular war upon each other on both sides. The real difference is that the Israelis go out of their way not to kill non-combatants (otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops and limiting themselves almost entirely to direct fire weapons) while the Palestinians go out of their way to purposely kill non-combatants.

[MrBaggins]

General Terrorism and the current military operation are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Why?

Terrorism is indiscriminate killing of non-combatants. The Palestinians have made their own bed by hiding combatants within their non-combatant population. This unfortunately means that any operation to rid the area of terrorists will also signinficantly effect the civilian population. The civilian population are also complicit in haboring these terrorists and supporting terrorist regimes, they, in my mind deserve everything they get.

The military operation is not indescriminately killing non-combantants. Israel has with in its power, the ability to kill as many Palestinians as it desires, although it chooses to be more selective.

History is kind to the victorious. Whilst a history book may question morality, it won't question the practical sovereignty.

--

On a lighter note, I'm glad that these suicide bombers only blew themselves and their families up. The current operation seems to be having a significantly successful impact in this regard.

mrbaggins

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Sikander


I fail to see the difference between popular governments waging popular war upon each other on both sides. The real difference is that the Israelis go out of their way not to kill non-combatants (otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops and limiting themselves almost entirely to direct fire weapons) while the Palestinians go out of their way to purposely kill non-combatants.

Funny how we had the same idea at the same time. GMTA

[Roland]

"otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops"

Which would have a series of consequences. Hurt Israel's standing in the western world a lot more than already, make "fight against terror" implausible, and risk an explosion throughout the arab world. So while the conduct of the IDF appears relatively restrained to what could happen, I would not really see humanitarian motives involved.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Roland
"otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops"

Which would have a series of consequences. Hurt Israel's standing in the western world a lot more than already, make "fight against terror" implausible, and risk an explosion throughout the arab world. So while the conduct of the IDF appears relatively restrained to what could happen, I would not really see humanitarian motives involved.

So why isn't there more clamoring from the western world to intervene to stop the Palestinians from not merely using indiscriminate means to attack the Israelis, but purposefully targeting civilians? Is the scale of only 30 killed a week too small to justify any action? Moral condemnation by the west is of small value against the Israelis, and of no value against the Palestinians.