Middle East NEWS

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
When in combat, a soldier must assume that the big black thing pointed at him is an RPG, not a camera.

Furthermore, many journalists have been caught in the crossfire, but the palestinians always claim Israelis shot them, and that is what gets shown.

If a journalist is so silly and gets shot that way, his fault. Just tell the world that happened.

I try to show you more or less the whole picture, but I do not rely on palestinain statements when they can't be proven. They tend to lie.

That is more than biased. It's an accusation without any fundament.

They claimed we killed a priest when we didn't. They claim we attacked the church for dozens of times in the last 48 hours, when we didn't.

Who tells US (Euros and Yanks) that you didn't? You can't expect us to believe they are lying.

I've heard them say we take parts of their children and use them as spare parts.

What else?

Similarly did the frogs in WWI. We made them pay 25 years later

The fact that there are 30 dead doesn't mean it's a massacare.

I didn't say that.

Most of those 30 dead were armed gunmen. Some, innocent people who happenned to be caught in the fire or misidentified.

How can you know that? Were told so by your government? By that bastard Ariel Sharon? Uh...

It happens in a war. I remind you America lost several soldiers from friendly fire. You can't say they "targeted" them.

The point is, do you learn from it and tend to be mre careful in future or do your soldeirs just not care and destroy any house they see?

As mentioned earlier, this Jenin stuff is pretty difficult to handle. I have 2 statements, and I'm not going to believe any of them. To be honest I mentioned it to give an example of "the whole picture" and "2 sides - 2 totally different statements about what's going on".

Their claims have no credibility. Not after they invent things.

I understand you don't give them any credibility. But how am I supposed to know whether they do invent things or not. If they do, they don't deserve any. But how much credibility does a man like Ariel Sharon deserve? Or his soldiers, that are still acused of being violent an without any respect forthe Palestinian people? (accused, not convicted)

And one more point for MOBIUS - you mentioned small children being killed. That is sure sad and causes anger.

But were they killed intentionally by Israeli Snipers?

[Ecthy]

since there is no way Siro and I will agree on anything, said rule is now enforced.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ecthelion

They claimed we killed a priest when we didn't. They claim we attacked the church for dozens of times in the last 48 hours, when we didn't.

Who tells US (Euros and Yanks) that you didn't? You can't expect us to believe they are lying.

I can only comment on the priest accusation. Would you believe the Vatican if they told you that the Palestinians were liars in that instance?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
OK, that looks very controversial indeed - get me a link to something other than this 'New Republic' site (i.e. something well known and respected) and I might give this some further consideration...

From a previous thread on the subject:

http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/03/18/0318au321023.htx?search=Pal%E4stinenser

Originally posted by BeBro
Ok, I´ll not translate the whole arcticle of "Die Welt" since most parts are identically to [Siro's] quote, but perhaps some details, (freely translated):

To the action itself:

"Two days after an new outbreak of the Intifada in the Westbank father and son are at the Nezariman crossing, within a gunbattle between Palestinians and Israelis. All unarmed Palestinians flee, only the al-Duras stay there. The firefight lasts ca. 45 minutes, recorded on video for France2 by Talal abu Rachma. He sends material of six minutes to his studio in Jerusalem, but only 50 seconds arrive there and get finally on air. Correspondent Charles Enderlein (in Jerusalem) says he only received those 50 seconds, and he says he will charge everyone who say the video was manipulated."

"The Palestinian TV made a videotape for the Ministry of Education, it shows a (not involved) Israeli sniper as murderer of Muhammad al-Dura."

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I can only comment on the priest accusation. Would you believe the Vatican if they told you that the Palestinians were liars in that instance?

I don't know if I would.

[Eli]

Hizballah fired Katyushas on Rajar, 3 injured

Rajar is an Arab village, divided between Israel and Lebanon. Few Katyushas had fallen there and 3 children were injured. One of the unjured is a baby in serious condition.


And yet again no one gives a **** when Arabs kill Arabs. It's when Jews kill them the situation is suddenly intolerable.

[Ecthy]

get rid of those insane buggers : p errm

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
If a journalist is so silly and gets shot that way, his fault. Just tell the world that happened.

we tried to tell the world that we didn't kill Muhamed El-durah.
Did anyone listen?

That is more than biased. It's an accusation without any fundament.

I brought fundament in the next line

Who tells US (Euros and Yanks) that you didn't? You can't expect us to believe they are lying.

What are you talking about?

There are claims and there are facts.

Fact: We didn't kill a priest. He even called the Vatican to assure he was alive and well.

Fact: We didn't attack a church, and we never will, since it would be suicidal.

Similarly did the frogs in WWI. We made them pay 25 years later

??

I didn't say that.

Yet you called it a massacare.
Or atleast someone did.

How can you know that? Were told so by your government? By that bastard Ariel Sharon? Uh...

By IDF spokesman.
By news services.
And derived from common knowledge based on recordings of previous events.

The point is, do you learn from it and tend to be mre careful in future or do your soldeirs just not care and destroy any house they see?

A) we do not destroy any house we see, only those which we need to destroy.
B) it's easy to say "you learn from it". How do you think it affects a gun battle? Do we shoot less? Do we not shoot at all?

As mentioned earlier, this Jenin stuff is pretty difficult to handle. I have 2 statements, and I'm not going to believe any of them. To be honest I mentioned it to give an example of "the whole picture" and "2 sides - 2 totally different statements about what's going on".

Again, since there are Israeli casualties, it means that there are armed men fighting the IDF. This means IDF shoots at armed men. This means that there will be many dead Palestinians who were armed men.

IDF soldiers do not die from shooting at helpless civilians.

I understand you don't give them any credibility. But how am I supposed to know whether they do invent things or not. If they do, they don't deserve any.

They do. I just brought you several examples.
1. we supposedly killed a priest
2. we supposedly attacked a church
3. we supposedly steal palestinian children's parts

But how much credibility does a man like Ariel Sharon deserve?

Why is it that you think that my news service consists of Ariel Sharon sitting there and speaking?

It is the Palestinian and Arab media that is country run.

[

Or his soldiers, that are still acused of being violent an without any respect forthe Palestinian people? (accused, not convicted)

More than terrorists that are guilty of terror (though not officially convicted)

And one more point for MOBIUS - you mentioned small children being killed. That is sure sad and causes anger.
But were they killed intentionally by Israeli Snipers?

No.

Most often, they are collateral damage from shelling palestinian targets, or from gun battles, in which case it is unclear who hit whom.

Palestinians, however, did snipe Israeli children. Both using guns (5 month old Shalhevet Pass) and using bombs (terrorists targetting discotheques, coming up to children and talking to them).

[Ecthy]

What are you talking about?

There are claims and there are facts.

Fact: We didn't kill a priest. He even called the Vatican to assure he was alive and well.

Fact: We didn't attack a church, and we never will, since it would be suicidal.

I didn't know he had contacted his boss already. Point taken

??

!!
You said they were telling stories about you eating babies or so. Such did the French in WWI. They lied, all about propaganda. And we made them pay 25 years later. 1940 that is ... oh...

Yet you called it a massacare.
Or atleast someone did.

You're twisting things, as you will do later on, I'm looking forward to it, but now for this: I said our news sites say that the Arabs say that you guys massacre people there. That is not in contraduiciton to the fact that you killed 30 people.

1. There might be more killed than said 30 armed men

2. Not all of them have to be armed guys, and 10 civilians that would be a massacre

A) we do not destroy any house we see, only those which we need to destroy.
B) it's easy to say "you learn from it". How do you think it affects a gun battle? Do we shoot less? Do we not shoot at all?

That's not an answer. There are ways to save the people that live in a house before you destroy it. You don't just destroy houses when in gun battles with Palestinians, do you? If it is necessary, then it is a hard fact of life that there are still innocent people in the house. And the Palestinians using them as shelters are arseholes in that case. But as on many other occasions, I have no idea under which circumstances those houses were destroyed. That's the problem, you could just make up things and I'd have to buy into them. I won't do that anyway, just "ask questions" over and over again

Again, since there are Israeli casualties, it means that there are armed men fighting the IDF. This means IDF shoots at armed men. This means that there will be many dead Palestinians who were armed men.

That doesn't mean ALL killed people there are armed men, my friend. Noone doubts that there are armed Palestinians in Jenin, but soem think your soldiers ignore all the innocent ones around. Again, if those or their homes are used as shelters for the bad guys, your soldiers can hardly be to blame. Somewhat, I don't know what to think about such a situation...

IDF soldiers do not die from shooting at helpless civilians.

But helpless civilians die from IDF soldiers shooting at them.

OK, this just had to be said ;-)

They do. I just brought you several examples.
1. we supposedly killed a priest
2. we supposedly attacked a church
3. we supposedly steal palestinian children's parts

Doesn't mean all of them are born liars. There are liars in every government. But of course that means their public guys are not to trust in...

No.

Most often, they are collateral damage from shelling palestinian targets, or from gun battles, in which case it is unclear who hit whom.

Palestinians, however, did snipe Israeli children. Both using guns (5 month old Shalhevet Pass) and using bombs (terrorists targetting discotheques, coming up to children and talking to them).

That's my point, I just couldn't be arsed to summarize it, so thanks for putting it brief.

Now I'd like to know whether it makes a difference for you MOBIUS, whether a baby is killed on intention or was probably not even known to be there and ended as ... well, there's only that term, as collateral damage?

[Sirotnikov]

You said they were telling stories about you eating babies or so. Such did the French in WWI. They lied, all about propaganda. And we made them pay 25 years later. 1940 that is ... oh...

Stories such as what?

(I could insert evil reference to holocaust here )

You're twisting things, as you will do later on, I'm looking forward to it, but now for this: I said our news sites say that the Arabs say that you guys massacre people there. That is not in contraduiciton to the fact that you killed 30 people.

1. There might be more killed than said 30 armed men

2. Not all of them have to be armed guys, and 10 civilians that would be a massacre

How could killing 10 civilians, on accident, in a very tough urban combat, be considered a massacare?
A massacare would be if we pass from home to home and shoot people indesriminantly.

That's not an answer. There are ways to save the people that live in a house before you destroy it.

Erm... the houses we destroy are evacuated.
And those that we destroyed some months ago, were vacant.

You don't just destroy houses when in gun battles with Palestinians, do you? If it is necessary, then it is a hard fact of life that there are still innocent people in the house.

Erm, I haven't heard of houses being destroyed with people being inside.

I have no idea under which circumstances those houses were destroyed.

Aha

That's the problem, you could just make up things and I'd have to buy into them. I won't do that anyway, just "ask questions" over and over again

mmkay

That doesn't mean ALL killed people there are armed men, my friend. Noone doubts that there are armed Palestinians in Jenin, but soem think your soldiers ignore all the innocent ones around. Again, if those or their homes are used as shelters for the bad guys, your soldiers can hardly be to blame. Somewhat, I don't know what to think about such a situation...

Look, the latest news report said that the armed terrorists are forcing the civilians to stay in their homes, in hope to use them as human shield, and increase deaths so they can call it a massacare.

IDF did want the civilians to leave the area so they could do house to house search.

But most houses are now booby trapped, and many civilians are forcefully held inside, so that they will be hit as well.

IDF says soldiers are aware of it, and doing all they can to avoid hitting the innocent people that are held in the same houses as terrorists.

But helpless civilians die from IDF soldiers shooting at them.

tsk tsk

They die from IDF shots that hit them.
I doubt IDF targets them.

Doesn't mean all of them are born liars. There are liars in every government. But of course that means their public guys are not to trust in...

And the same goes for most of the civilians.

For instance, many doctors are in it as well.
There are recorded incidents of doctors presenting naturally dead people as victims of Israeli fire. Look at the 5th page of the ME pictures thread, where Guardian presents a claim of two people bleeding to death after being hit from israeli fire, but they have little blood around them.

Now I'd like to know whether it makes a difference for you MOBIUS, whether a baby is killed on intention or was probably not even known to be there and ended as ... well, there's only that term, as collateral damage?

This is what I've asked him many times.

To him it doesn't make a difference. He made that clear in his posts about Afghanistan as well.

[Eli]

A small Israeli unmanned plane crashed near the settlement of Yitzhar. Close to the Palestinian city of Nablus.

No casualties. Doh.

[Ecthy]

In English that is called "missile heading for a big apartment house full of children"

[Sirotnikov]

Sudan declares open training ground for terrorists
Sudanece Defense Minister offered anyone who wants to attack Israel to come train at Sudan's military facilities. "Every Sudanese civilian is hereupon called to defend Palestine" he said addressing the nation on National Tv.

IDF soldiers leave appology notes
IDF soldiers reportedly tend to leave appology notes in homes of families they occupied. "It's tough" they say "and very unpleasant, but it's duty".

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
IDF soldiers leave appology notes
IDF soldiers reportedly tend to leave appology notes in homes of families they occupied. "It's tough" they say "and very unpleasant, but it's duty".

They should really stop that practice. It can only serve to inflame a person even further than he already is.

[Imran Siddiqui]

On CNN right now... they are talking about the IDF bullying journalists.

Bad press... the Journalists might not be anti-Israel but they aren't going to stand for not being able to cover events . That, and it seems like you are trying to hide something.

Also the other day, an American living in Palestine was telling how IDF soldiers destroyed her house and urinated on the floors. She called them bullies and thugs.

Bad press indeed.