Soviet Union's Possible Success

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Because the USA kept Britain going. We were the "arsenal of democracy." We armed and fed everyone. Thus the higher contribution rating, even though the actual importance of our fighting contribution was nowhere near the level of the Soviets. Still, I'd give the Soviets more than 50%.

Actually, I think our country is the arsenal of bulls**t.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Care to elaborate a little?

If they did it in Germany then it was legitimate, sort of, since the US was surely part of the Allied control council thing, don't know how you call that in English (Alliierter Kontrollrat). I mean they intended to prevent wrong leanings from gaining power in the republic so it's no surprise they did that... but what about Italy and France?

You mean the other fascist regimes we replaced during WW2?

[Heresson]

Economical alliance with USSR wasn't at all benefitable for Poland, Vagabond.
There was one joke. It was sth like this;
-what do You call economical partnership with USSR?
-we give them iron and pay for that with coal
It's not funny, but get the point;
during the war, USSR ripped polish lands of
all artwork and industrial machines they could
get, and after the war we had to send to USSR coal in the before-the-war-prices,
which obviously was very very very profitable for USSR.
There is a joke;
-if You are lost in a forest, how do You know where is east and where is west?
-I'm walking forward up to the nearest railtrack. If there are wagons fool of coal,
they are heading east. If the wagons are empty, they are heading west.

There is one more;
1st may, workers' defilade.
Drunk man gets to the microphone and shouts through it; Long live our dear dear
rail-workers! on and on.
And when someone points him out,
that rail workers will be next, and now
miners are marching, he says;
Yes! I'm a miner too, but if not my dear
rail workers, I'd have to carry the coal myself on my back to our neighbour in need
in the west...

These aren't good jokes, and I'm not sure if You'll understand them, but who cares...

[steelehc]

Originally posted by Stefu


Suring Winter War, Russia was aligned with the Nazis more than Finland was. Nazis stopped weapons shipments from coming to Finland as a thanks to their good-buddy-for-the-time-Stalin.

True. I was talking about after the Winter War, after Barbarossa had started, when the Finns joined up with the Nazis to get their land back.

Steele

[Stefu]

Well, we were talking mostly about Winter War.

[Saras]

I'd give Hitler ~30%. I think everyone admits that if the military was allowed to do the right things on the battlefields the war would have been different.

Re: Russian casualties - These could have been lower if not for Stalins "hold on to the last man" and liberal artillery barrages (not accidental, but a part of tactics of Zhukov!) on German positons during Soviet charges.

Does not make the suffering of Russian people any smaller or less meaningful.

But the suffering and deaths do not justify the enslavement of my people and whole of Eastern Europe.

On a separate note - Che, you sometimes seem manic-obsessive with your communist "alternative history". It almost looks that everything we know is a CIA plot of some kind, and Stalin was just a "fool" (he was really more like Nosferatu) and William Blum is Holy Writ

[Deathwalker]

I think the USSR could have survived if it had been on normal turns with it's neighbor. It greatest problems were Stalin and WW2. With out those it might have survived, WW2 set it on a course of war with the the rest of the world. If it had been left alone to grow slowly internally with taking over eastern Europe and all the problems that brought Russia might have survived. At first the USSR was not corrupt that created in after the war and then in the helped destroy it.

[Serb]

Originally posted by David Floyd
serb - Don't think you're getting off easy, I just don't have time at the moment to give a response to everything you said. Later today though, be very afraid

I'm still waiting.
And I'm so afraid.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Saras
On a separate note - Che, you sometimes seem manic-obsessive with your communist "alternative history".

It wasn't my thread. Someone asked how it could have been different, I gave my opinion.

It almost looks that everything we know is a CIA plot of some kind,

Just because something's a conpiracy theory doesn't mean there wasn't a real consiparcy. Watergate was a real conspiracy. Iran-contra was a real conspiracy. If someone had told all before those stories broke, they would have been labeled conspiracy nuts.

I.e., just cuz you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

and Stalin was just a "fool" (he was really more like Nosferatu)

Nosferatu is a good term. I don't think Stalin was a fool. I think he was a brialliant politician in some ways, and a supreme idiot in others (like not foreseeing the Nazi invasion). He was the supreme bureaucrat

and William Blum is Holy Writ

Blum just puts everything in one easy to quote from place. Most of the stuff I've read in multiple sources. In effect, he makes me lazy cuz I don't have to try and figure out where all those sources are.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Luk
We are gulity that we let Russian underintelligent, militaristic civilization to grow, it is all because We Poles in XVII century belived we are the best in the World... And it lost us... I say sorry to all civilized World that we didnt colonized Russians and let them to grow.

Im sorry one more time

I'm bet you are still believe that you are the best of the best.

Keep your apologizes for yourself. Yes, you made an attemp to enslave us in the beggining of XVII and were almost succesfull . We ****d your asses sooooooo hard and already in XVIII Poland was a province of Russian Empire. So, don't play a saint or victim here you tried to conquer us (your last attempt was in 1919-1921, but we've returned what you took in 1939), you are no less conquers then we are. With only difference that you are less lucky (you fought with wrong enemies) and less skillfull conquers.
So stop crying, you let us to grow, Who do you think you are?

P.S. If you are gone make one more attempt in the future (which is unlikely, but only hypoteticaly if...) then I should warn you- We have a lot of Ivan Susanins waiting to guide a mighty Polish army in nearest forest.

[Serb]

Originally posted by steelehc
Serb: When I said that roughly 30% of Russian war material came from Lend-Lease, I was giving you a very accurate figure. That includes weapons designed in the US or UK, which made up the majority of Lend-Lease aid. Only 6% or 7% was actually built in the US.

You said once that you was trained to sink Soviet ships, it means that you have connection to Navy, right?

If it's true, then ask one question.
The only connection between SU and USA/GB was a Nothern route, wich was patroled by German fleet.
How can you claim that 30% of Soviet raw material came from Lend-Lease. For such amount of cargo you've need many times more ships then you used for transportation of your invasion forces in 1944. As far as I remember there was less then 200 convoys during war, some of them were sinked by German submarines.

Repeat, we apriciate for your help, especialy in first year of war, but saying that 1/3 of Soviet raw materials, weapons, ammunition, boots, radio stations etc. ( 1/3 of all resources spent in this war by us) has come from Lend Lease is NONSENCE.

7-8%, MAXIMUM.

[Serb]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


I think I know that word....

Sure, you know.

[steelehc]

Originally posted by Serb


You said once that you was trained to sink Soviet ships, it means that you have connection to Navy, right?

Yes, glad you remembered. US Navy.

If it's true, then ask one question.
The only connection between SU and USA/GB was a Nothern route, wich was patroled by German fleet.
How can you claim that 30% of Soviet raw material came from Lend-Lease. For such amount of cargo you've need many times more ships then you used for transportation of your invasion forces in 1944. As far as I remember there was less then 200 convoys during war, some of them were sinked by German submarines.

Repeat, we apriciate for your help, especialy in first year of war, but saying that 1/3 of Soviet raw materials, weapons, ammunition, boots, radio stations etc. ( 1/3 of all resources spent in this war by us) has come from Lend Lease is NONSENCE.

7-8%, MAXIMUM.

There were other connections between the US and the USSR. There was the southern route, from India and Australia, and the Alaskan route, through Alaska. In fact, over 15,000 airplanes came through Fairbanks, Alaska, where I grew up.

And let me restate. 7-8% of war material was built in the US. Roughly 21% was designed in the US, but actually built in the USSR. The designs, schematics, etc... were sent over. This includes everything from planes to guns to rockets to refrigerators to ammunition. In this 30%, things not made in the US were designed there or in the UK.

I hope this explains the issue.

Steele

[Serb]

There were other connections between the US and the USSR. There was the southern route, from India and Australia, and the Alaskan route, through Alaska. In fact, over 15,000 airplanes came through Fairbanks, Alaska, where I grew up.

Excuse me, may be I'm not understand something, but what route between India and Australia has common with route between USSR and USA?
Alaska? May be, I suppose all planes come frome this route, because there was no railroad connection between our Far East and our European part at that time. So, only planes could flew by this route, any other cargo couldn't be sent by this way because of lack of railroads.
So I'm still absolutely sure that Nothern route was the only efficient way wich connect our countries during war. And absolutely sure that majority of cargo was delivered by this route.

Originally posted by steelehc

And let me restate. 7-8% of war material was built in the US. Roughly 21% was designed in the US, but actually built in the USSR. The designs, schematics, etc... were sent over. This includes everything from planes to guns to rockets to refrigerators to ammunition. In this 30%, things not made in the US were designed there or in the UK.

I hope this explains the issue.

Steele

No, it didn't.
It's just sounds like another round- 'Russians stole everything from west.'
Are you trying to convince me that US government shared technology with USSR during war?
Planes? Are you trying to say that on Soviet factories were constructed planes of an American design? There was no a single plane of US design constructed in SU during war. Not a single plane. We have a lot of exelent planes of our own design and there was no any need for construction of US designed planes on Soviet factories. And it was simply impossible. For construction of planes of foreign design you need- equipment of the same design, you need spare parts of the same design, you need foreign engineeres, you should know all technological process from beggining to the end. So, not a single plane of foreign design was constructed in SU during war, the same for anything else.
Soviet government indeed asked for examples of American jet planes, but all requests were denied.

Guns and rockets? Soviet union have much superior rocket technology before the war then US, I wounder if US have any example of such technology before the war. We have RS- "reaktivnie snaryady"- Air to Air missiles wich were succesfully used against Japanese in 1939. Even before the war we had the first mobile rocket launchers known as "Katusha" , not as prototypes by as fully artilery regiments. In 1941 we have hundreds of those Surface to Surface mobile rocket launchers, at the end of war we have tousands of them.

Refrigerators? I'm not sure what are you talking about.

Ammunition? American and soviet ammunition has different calibers. How Americans could have better desighned ammunition for soviet weapons then Soviets itself?

Sorry, but thing that "30% of Soviet technology comes from America" sounds even more nonsece for me then "30% of all raw materials."

[faded glory]

Krux your full of yourself.


Lay off the Civ3 for awhile.


well this is a wohle new thread,

Steele
I wonder why Communism is so freakin productive in Civ games. Almost impossible to outproduce a Communist foe