Soviet Union's Possible Success

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Timexwatch
Since I'm too lazy to comment on the first page, I'll just point out a few things:

Che:

The French never really stopped ruling Vietnam. The Japanese basically let the French continue running the place. Uncle Ho was not a fan of that decision

Following the collapse of the Japanese, the Vietnamese set up their own government. Had the US decided to support it, it would have saved but us and the French, not to mention the Vietnamese, thirty years of war to liberate and unite their country.

What we do know is that once the U.S. dropped the bombs on Japan, Russia declared war appx. two days later. Their invasion of Manchuria was speed up by three weeks, indicating that they certainly feared an immediate surrender by Japan and wanted to gain some quick territory. Even the flight of the Enola Gay to Britan sent rumbling through the Soviet leadership.

That's a little bit of a myth on our part to make the USSR seem opportunist. The truth is, they declared war on Japan they day they had promised to declare war on Japan at Yalta.

The Russians were no more entitled to northern Persia the the Kurils (I belive that was the island chain they invaded). This by no means excuses the Brits, though...

I am not arguing that they were. The point is that the US threatened to nuke the USSR if they didn't leave. No such threat was made to the Brit's, and seven years later, when the Shah was overthrown, despite the opinion everyone may have had of him (according to steelhc), the US invaded and put him back in power (Norm Schwatzkopf's dad was in charge of that operation).

What do you think Secretary of State Byrnes meant in the U.N. when he told the Soviet ambassador "Get out of Iran or we'll give it to you with both barrells!" (IIRC)

Exactly.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Just one question: the united states skewed West German election results? Elaborate please, got any details?

Not so much that they skewed election results, but rather, at least two, but I think possibly more, German states had certain "communistic" provisions in their state consitutions, to which the US said, "No."

[Ecthy]

Care to elaborate a little?

If they did it in Germany then it was legitimate, sort of, since the US was surely part of the Allied control council thing, don't know how you call that in English (Alliierter Kontrollrat). I mean they intended to prevent wrong leanings from gaining power in the republic so it's no surprise they did that... but what about Italy and France?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

That's a little bit of a myth on our part to make the USSR seem opportunist. The truth is, they declared war on Japan they day they had promised to declare war on Japan at Yalta.

But being opportunistic is not necessarily bad for countries.

And, what country is NOT opportunistic in advancing their own interests??

[Ecthy]

hmm... Sweden?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun


But being opportunistic is not necessarily bad for countries.

And, what country is NOT opportunistic in advancing their own interests??

Well, it's always opposed to us noble and virtuous Americans, who were only interested in liberating people and spreading freedom.

Ecthelion, in 1947, the Communist Party, the guys who had liberated Northern Italy from the Nazis and executed Mussolini , were expected to sweep the elections. The US started a campaign here in the US, having Italian-Americans write to family in Italy telling them that if the Communists won, they wouldn't be allowed to send money home. They hired the Mafia to committ election fraud and intimidation. The US state department declared that the US would cut off aid. They initiated a massive propaganda campaign to scare Italians away from voting for the Communists. The state department said that Italians known to have voted for communists would not be allowed into the country. The CIA contributed a million dollars to centrist parties (in 1948, a king's ransom in Italy). And lots, lots more.

In France, basically the Communists were very important in the Marseille docks, and the CIA hired the Coriscan mob to break them.

[Ecthy]

It's spelled Ecthelion. I'm not reading your post before you change that

don't worry I read it

[Luk]

Im Pole, and Im pissed off that Russians did enslaved us for over 50 years!

This enslavment was most horrible for us from all Slav Nations because we always felt to Russian despise and superiority in almost every single sphere... Specially cultural and civilization. Even in 45-89 years Russians always disliked us because we felt that we are better and we never ever hidden it.

We are gulity that we let Russian underintelligent, militaristic civilization to grow, it is all because We Poles in XVII century belived we are the best in the World... And it lost us... I say sorry to all civilized World that we didnt colonized Russians and let them to grow.

Im sorry one more time

[steelehc]

To the Finns: Your small nation fought very heroically, after the USSR demanded the fronteir be pushed back some 200km, and rights to a couple bases on Finnish soil. I think it is a travesty that some of that territory remains part of Russia. However, you must remember that the Russians have a point. Finland was aligned with the Nazis, to such an extent that there was a Waffen SS division composed entirely of Finns.

Serb: When I said that roughly 30% of Russian war material came from Lend-Lease, I was giving you a very accurate figure. That includes weapons designed in the US or UK, which made up the majority of Lend-Lease aid. Only 6% or 7% was actually built in the US.

I am mistaken. The US apparently did threaten to nuke the USSR over Persia. Not over Eastern Europe, however, which is what this discussion was about (after it was about economic success).

My ratings? Impossible to determine with such precision. If I had to guess...
USSR-45%
US-40%
UK-15%

The allies would likely not have been victorious without any of these three, or if they had, it would have been longer and far more costly then it was.

Serb: I resent your comments about what WW2 was like for Russians. One of my grandparents was a German Jew. He was sent to Auschwitz (I think) in 1942. I understand what happened in Poland, Russia, and the rest of Eastern Europe very well, probably better then most, and I can say that you had it very well compared to the Poles, as horrible as that sounds. In any case, WW2 was horrible for many millions of people, and we should all be thankful it wasn't any worse.

Steele

[The Vagabond]

steelehc:

At least we agree with each other on one point: Britain - 15%

Even assuming for the sake of argument that 30% of Russian war material came from the US as you say, how is it possible that you award 45% to the country that actually fought the war and besides provided 70% of its war material, and at the same time 40% to the country that didn't fight for the most part of the war and entered into action only in 1944, when the outcome of the war was cristal clear? Don't you feel an inconsistency in your ratings?

[chequita guevara]

Because the USA kept Britain going. We were the "arsenal of democracy." We armed and fed everyone. Thus the higher contribution rating, even though the actual importance of our fighting contribution was nowhere near the level of the Soviets. Still, I'd give the Soviets more than 50%.

[Sava]

ALL HAIL THE FORESKIN

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[The Vagabond]

Luk, I feel sorry for what happen to your country due to us. But I disagree with the details of your comment.

Originally posted by Luk
Im Pole, and Im pissed off that Russians did enslaved us for over 50 years!

"Enslavement" does not seem to be the right word here. Were the Poles converted into slaves that work for their Russian masters? Or perhaps Poland was forced to pay contributions? Nothing of the sort happened. The only restriction imposed on Poland by the USSR was that Poland had to remain in the "Soviet orbit". In all other respects, Poland was independent. Economically, Poland enjoyed a vast Soviet market for its goods. Poland was receiving natural resourse from the USSR at reduced prices. Poland was not sustaining the burden of heavy defence spending the USSR had to sustain. Overall, the livings standards in Poland were higher than in the USSR. I just need to mention all these facts in order to show that it was not a plain enslavement. Don't overdemonize Russia.

This enslavment was most horrible for us from all Slav Nations because we always felt to Russian despise and superiority in almost every single sphere... Specially cultural and civilization. Even in 45-89 years Russians always disliked us because we felt that we are better and we never ever hidden it.

It's news to me that the Russians despised you. This is not true at all.

We are gulity that we let Russian underintelligent, militaristic civilization to grow,

You know, underintelligent civilizations usually don't grow that much. Save that.

it is all because We Poles in XVII century belived we are the best in the World... And it lost us... I say sorry to all civilized World that we didnt colonized Russians and let them to grow.

Yeah, in 1612 the Poles captured Moscow. Poland was at the peak of its power back then.

It was not only you who let Russia grow. Russia faced many rivalries in the process. Therefore you don't need to feel any especial guilt

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Because the USA kept Britain going. We were the "arsenal of democracy." We armed and fed everyone. Thus the higher contribution rating, even though the actual importance of our fighting contribution was nowhere near the level of the Soviets. Still, I'd give the Soviets more than 50%.

So, as one can deduce from your post, your ratings would be USSR - 55%, Britain - 15%. Consequently, USA - 30%.

[Stefu]

Finland was aligned with the Nazis, to such an extent that there was a Waffen SS division composed entirely of Finns.

Suring Winter War, Russia was aligned with the Nazis more than Finland was. Nazis stopped weapons shipments from coming to Finland as a thanks to their good-buddy-for-the-time-Stalin.