Bush Speaks Out On The Mid-East Crises

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Jews are evil and must be destroyed. [/paiktis22]

Blacks are inferior [/Dinodoc]

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Blacks are inferior [/Dinodoc]

Mine was both witty and closer to the truth about your apparent feelings on the matter.

[Ecthy]

Just C-H-I-L-L [/Ming]

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc




Mine was both witty and closer to the truth about your apparent feelings on the matter.

Yours was a troll, mine has historical basis.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by paiktis22

Won't happen untill Palestine is free, a state with full rights.
So live with it.
As long as this does not happen US and Israel will suffer.

Reality.

I agree that there should be such a Palestinian State. What I fail to understand, however, are those people who are so pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli that they are fine with the suicide bombing. Both sides need to stop beating on each other in order to make peace - anyone can see that. I was making more of a practical comment than a moral one. U.S. public opinion, which is probably more powerful than you think, is mostly pro-Israel and will remain so largely because of the bombings. From a practical standpoint, if the Palestinian goal is to have a state of their own, suicide bombing only hurts them.

I really would like to see stable & secure Israel and Palestine side-by-side. I don't think either side's policies will help achieve that goal. This is why I liked Dubya's speech - because he criticized both sides.

Incidentally, I would add one more thing to your prior post:

"As long as this does not happen US, Israel and the Palestinians will suffer. Reality"

-Arrian

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Arrian
I agree that there should be such a Palestinian State.

Good.

What I fail to understand, however, are those people who are so pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli that they are fine with the suicide bombing.

Noone condones suiocide bombings.

Both sides need to stop beating on each other in order to make peace - anyone can see that.

Again, agreed.

I was making more of a practical comment than a moral one.

Me too.

U.S. public opinion, which is probably more powerful than you think, is mostly pro-Israel and will remain so largely because of the bombings.

US public opinion is manipulated according to what US interests are. And they are pro-Israeli. So you don't get any of the Palestinian suffering on your TVs.

From a practical standpoint, if the Palestinian goal is to have a state of their own, suicide bombing only hurts them.

See above.

I really would like to see stable & secure Israel and Palestine side-by-side. I don't think either side's policies will help achieve that goal.

Agreed.

This is why I liked Dubya's speech - because he criticized both sides.

I and many others hated it. It keeps "equal distances" from both parties. That means that since Israel is far more powerful, he is pro-Israeli and allows the murders to continue.
But he did feel the pressure, hence his speech. So it's a step in the right direction. Although their are no illusions about US foreign policy.
Withou the US Israel could not murder.

Incidentally, I would add one more thing to your prior post:

"As long as this does not happen US, Israel and the Palestinians will suffer. Reality"

-Arrian

And Europe through some restriction of Civil Liberties. (Osama)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Noone condones suiocide bombings.

Not true. I can name one person on this very board that cheers them on.

Europe does as well because they fail to demand any accountability from either Arafat or the PA for stopping the suicide attacks on civilians.

[Jac de Molay]

if the Palestinian goal is to have a state of their own, suicide bombing onlY hurts them.

Sadly, that's not the goal of suicide bombers. Those elements want the wholesale destruction of Israel

[Arrian]

Paiktis22,

Noone condones the suicide bombings? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Maybe not you, but many of those who are critical of Israel when it comes to the use of force are either supportive of, or silent about the suicide bombings. It seems to me that if you think Israel's occupation is wrong, then you must also feel that the Palestinian's use of violence against civilians is wrong. But not all Pal apologists do. That's all I was saying.

Second, I'm fully aware that our media is biased. Which is why I get my news online, from a variety of sources. HOWEVER, I believe that the primary reason that those who wish to only present one side of the issue are so successful is the use of suicide bombing. Those attacks remove all credibility from the Palestinian cause. Sorry, but I cannot and will not respect people who believe that strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a restaurant full of people is an acceptable form of resistance! And believe me, most of my countrymen agree. Remove that from the equation, however, and I would probably be pro-Palestinian, instead of equally disgusted with both sides.

The really unfortunately thing is that the extremists are running the show on both sides. Those who actually may want peace have no voice now, or are being converted to more extreme points of view by the daily slaughter.

-Arrian

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Arrian
Paiktis22,

Noone condones the suicide bombings? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Maybe not you, but many of those who are critical of Israel when it comes to the use of force are either supportive of, or silent about the suicide bombings. It seems to me that if you think Israel's occupation is wrong, then you must also feel that the Palestinian's use of violence against civilians is wrong. But not all Pal apologists do. That's all I was saying.

Suicide bombings are wrong. How can one say they are not?

Second, I'm fully aware that our media is biased. Which is why I get my news online, from a variety of sources. HOWEVER, I believe that the primary reason that those who wish to only present one side of the issue are so successful is the use of suicide bombing. Those attacks remove all credibility from the Palestinian cause. Sorry, but I cannot and will not respect people who believe that strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a restaurant full of people is an acceptable form of resistance! And believe me, most of my countrymen agree. Remove that from the equation, however, and I would probably be pro-Palestinian, instead of equally disgusted with both sides.

Israel's tanks buldozers and settlers killing and driving people from their homes fuels suicide bombers.
A free Palestinian state respected by Israel will limit these bombings to very few extremists which will be promptly be taken care of by the whole International Community without exceptions and without divisions.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


My sig says I am neutral. So again I am not taking sides. I am criticising both Palestinian Leader Yassir Arafat and Israel evenly. I don't care about Sharon. This situation just has to be resolved peacefully because there is no way either side could win. The only way this would work is if Israel would kill every last Palestinian, and that won't happen.

I agree that a peaceful settlement is necessary. I just believe that to understand the obstacles to a settlement it is important not to personalize it too much. This is even true wrt Arafat, though he has been the Pal leader for a long time. It is even more true wrt to Israel.


LOTM

[Arrian]

P22,

Yes, and suicide bombings fuel the IDF incursions. That's like the chicken and the egg, and just as pointless! This thing has gone on for so long that each side will switch into full attack mode at the slightest provocation. That's what makes it so damn easy for the extremists to prevent peace.

So, let's move into the realm of fiction for a moment. I ask you this: from a practical standpoint, exactly what would you have the world leadership do? By that I mean the US, EU, and/or the UN. Would you send in international peacekeepers? What if the suicide attacks continued while the two sides were attempting to negotiate? Would the UN go after them, or would they be ignored? How exactly would you handle that issue? Or would there be no negotiations - would you enforce an outside solution on both sides?

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Fortunately our protests have been heard and the US is going to tell its doggie to pull the beasts out.

Palestine saved, once more.

Paiktis may be correct, but not quite in the way he means it. The US is now going to give Arafat one last chance to live up to his commitments and end terror. After Bush's speech, he CANNOT let Arafat off the hook again. IF (very big if) Arafat and the Palestinian people see reason, then Palestine WILL be saved, thanks to George W Bush. If not, not.


LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22

A free Palestinian state respected by Israel will limit these bombings to very few extremists which will be promptly be taken care of by the whole International Community without exceptions and without divisions.

Really? You can guarantee this??? with your life and the lives of your children???? Because thats what you're asking of Israel.

How will they take care of it? With an international force that will go into palestinian cities, and hunt for terrorists? and will stay there, even when palestinian civilians die in collateral damage? and when "international troopers" die? They will not turn tail and run, like they did in Srebinica? they will not make further excuses, since a case can and will be made that even an israel behind 1967 lines is still racist and oppresive to Palestinians? They will not look the other way, like they did in Rwanda? They will not wait for the Americans to push them into it, and then complain about american imperialism, like they did in Kosovo?
I am not saying you are entirely wrong, i think the general direction you are pointing - israeli peace with free palestine, backed up by international support for Israel is the right direction. But you must be aware that even as it goes in that direction, Israel must take into account both that the number who keep commiting terrorist acts against Israel in that situation is likely to be large, and international support is likely to be ineffective, and so they must be very careful the free palestine has borders and other safeguards that enable Israel to defend itself, if necessary.


LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22


Suicide bombings are wrong. How can one say they are not?

Heres how "acts of resistance against illegal occupation cannot be condemned, and are not terrorism" This kind of statement has been widely applied to the homicide bombers. Iraq has recently upped its reward to families that homicide bombers leave behind, The govt of Iraq not only condones, but encourages homicide bombers. Large numbers of palestinians treat the homicide bombers as heros, and put pressure on young men to join them. Iran ships Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al aqsa brigades organize and equip homicide bombers. Arafat provides funds to al aqsa brigades to buy explosives for homicide bombers.

All these not only condone, but encourage, equip and organize homicide bombings.


LOTM