What is wrong with the concept of "race"?

[Velociryx]

What's wrong with "race" is that there's no such beast. The last time there were multiple hominid races to discuss was about the time when the Neanderthals were still around.

Unless you can find a few stray Neanders floating around, there's not a lot that can be said on the topic.

Tribes of humans...sure. Race? Nahhh.

Not for a very long time.

-=Vel=-

[ranskaldan]

What would your definition of race be then?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Chegitz- I do think you have some good points, however, I think that AA does allow a fair amount of lesser qualified people through, and I would like to elimjinate that.

So what's your solution to racist and sexist hiring practices that promote less qualified white men, given that, despite it's prevalence, it is very difficult to prove in specific, individual cases? It's not as if most racists are actually stupid enough to leave evidence lying around.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I am not distoriting the purpose I know the purpose- I also know however, that some people don't care if people who are unqalified receive jobs.

Can you name a specific instance of this?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Why do you say that?

The U.S. Supreme Court has been taking 'quota' cases recently and redefining what is legal, and the trend is to reign in AA so that terms like racial discrimination actually mean what they seem to mean. In other words there is a majority on the SC which feels like the recovery period from segregation and sex discrimination is over or coming to a close, and we had better establish some universal principles which will serve us far into the future where we can see America as having no majority 'race'. This means the we have to apply the laws to people of every ethnic group equally. I obviously agree with the supremes. We have paid more than enough attention to the idea of race in this country, and it has been a painful journey every step of the way.

I'm all for helping people who need a hand, but doing so inefficiently while perpetuating a greater crime is extremely foolish. We should test for need and give a hand to those who need (ie allow a certain percentage of people whose parents didn't attend college into public universities etc.) regardless of their ethnic background. If there are descrepencies between ethnic groups, this will help even things up without forcing anyone to officially identify themselves as any race but human.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MrFun

So, you're using the ad hominem fallacy in your counter-argument??

You never provided an argument to counter in the statement I quoted, it was more or less gibberish. I merely pointed out that your phrasing seemed to indicate that you were not a master of the concept you introduced, and that this is not helpful to either the discussion or to one's impression of your intellectual capabilities. (I then explained the origins of the term 'reverse discrimination', where I agreed that it was stupid without conceding that the concept of discrimination against caucasians and men itself is flawed, and went off on my own rant.)

If this was a one time occurance I wouldn't have commented on it, but I see you do this all the time. Then you complain that no one is paying attention to your posts. The problem is that often your posts are not germain to the discussion at hand, even though they may contain incontrovertable facts. People usually only bother to respond to posts that further the discussion, or which are factually incorrect, or which cause an emotional response (usually negative).

Originally posted by MrFun

Anyway, I have not given any false intention -- it's based on books and articles that I have read.

Your appeal to authority was ham-handed, and though I agreed to some degree with what you said, I didn't agree with what you thought you were saying. I felt that you would have been a good deal clearer if you used language that you have a better grasp of. I realize that the ideas you referred to are not your own. You should realize that just because you read something in a book or article doesn't mean that the ideas so conveyed are free from bias, stupidity etc. Mein Kampf is a book too, and no one is going to cut you any slack for quoting it or the ideas it conveys any more than I am going to cut you any slack for ideas you regurgitate from nameless sociologists.

Originally posted by MrFun

Try reading sometime.

So that's what you do with those book thingies! I have hundreds of them around the house, now I can put them to good use. Thanks for the tip!

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sikander


The U.S. Supreme Court...

What does that have to do with your statement: "As for HR directors telling people that they didn't get the job because of minority quota, I can't think of a stupider thing to do these days."

In other words, why do you think it is stupid that HR directors use AA as an excuse?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai


What does that have to do with your statement: "As for HR directors telling people that they didn't get the job because of minority quota, I can't think of a stupider thing to do these days."

In other words, why do you think it is stupid that HR directors use AA as an excuse?

Yes, both for the initial reason that they are lying and adding to the general racial tension in society by doing so, and because they are opening themselves up to lawsuits by telling people that they lost the job in order to meet a minority hiring goal (which I explained in the subsequent post is a growth industry here in the U.S. as the SC reigns in blatant racial preferences of any kind). Even if the company is able to prove that the HR director was lying it will be costly.

[MrFun]

Sikander, where did I say that I was the master of this issue??

If you felt I was implying that, then sorry for the misunderstanding.

And, I am not blindly appealing to authorities -- I am merely saying that my opinion is not without foundation, since I have read some material on this issue.
No, one should never blindly kow-tow to experts on any issue.

And with my previous posts, I have made statements that laziness is an individual trait, not a racial trait.
I also pointed out that the purpose of affirmative action was not to hire incompetent people just because they belong to a minority group -- it is to aggressively hire people who qualify, who are of a minority group.

I fail to see how those statements are incoherent ramblings when they specifically countered statements made by other people??

But now I understand that the others merely meant the potential misuse of affirmative action.

Ok, so there is potential for some misuse, but can you point out a program that is perfect??

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

I am not distoriting the purpose I know the purpose- I also know however, that some people don't care if people who are unqalified receive jobs.

Can you name a specific instance of this?

Yes, in real life I know some people who stated what I said. I know AT LEAST 2 people. And I only debated this aroudn 30 people.

So what's your solution to racist and sexist hiring practices that promote less qualified white men, given that, despite it's prevalence, it is very difficult to prove in specific, individual cases? It's not as if most racists are actually stupid enough to leave evidence lying around.

My solution:
If the authorities DO overview the hiring records and see that the applicants are equally qualified, then they should interview the employer, and if the employer does not have a GOOD reason, then the "minority" should receive the job!


-
Oh and Chegitz, if you heard of the Crackerbarrel discrimination lawsuit- I have one thing to say- I sort of expected it... The Crackerbarrel employees are *******s to everyone, that's why I no longer eat there. Their employees are the biggest jackasses I ever saw. I can explain if you want. Or if you wish to know about the lawsuit.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MrFun

And, I am not blindly appealing to authorities -- I am merely saying that my opinion is not without foundation, since I have read some material on this issue.

Reading some material is background, a foundation is when you have a defensible logical base for your assertion.

Originally posted by MrFun
No, one should never blindly kow-tow to experts on any issue.

Agreed.

Originally posted by MrFun
And with my previous posts, I have made statements that laziness is an individual trait, not a racial trait.
I also pointed out that the purpose of affirmative action was not to hire incompetent people just because they belong to a minority group -- it is to aggressively hire people who qualify, who are of a minority group.

I fail to see how those statements are incoherent ramblings when they specifically countered statements made by other people??

I have only been referring to the two line post of yours (which I quoted in my post in our first exchange) where you speak about 'reverse discrimination'. That was incoherent. I haven't touched upon the issues you are talking about above, or the posts you refer to.

Originally posted by MrFun

But now I understand that the others merely meant the potential misuse of affirmative action.

Ok, so there is potential for some misuse, but can you point out a program that is perfect??

I'm not sure why you address this argument to me, as it has very little to do with anything I've stated here. I'm less concerned with actual and potential misuse of AA than I am with the entire concept of racial identity which it breathes life into. I want the race categorizing to stop, especially at the official level where it receives the ultimate legitimacy and economic and legal power.

AA is the latest in a long line of laws and policies in this country going back to the constitution, through Dred Scott and Jim Crow and segregation. The fact that the shoe is on the other foot is but a smokescreen for the greater evil, which is identifying others and ourselves by race and perpetuating the critical basic idea behind racism.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Sikander

AA is the latest in a long line of laws and policies in this country going back to the constitution, through Dred Scott and Jim Crow and segregation. The fact that the shoe is on the other foot is but a smokescreen for the greater evil, which is identifying others and ourselves by race and perpetuating the critical basic idea behind racism.

Ok, so we will agree to disagree.