What is wrong with the concept of "race"?

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Most companies don't even really have Affirmative Action. Managers just use it as an excuse to avoid telling slackers that they didn't get the job because they're incompetent.

Given your seemingly omniscience and omnipotence, I'm curious what a manager would say to a black employee who applies for a promotion, who is this hypothetical scenario, is in fact a slacker and incompotent.

[MrFun]

Slacking and laziness are individual traits that are not related to race or ethnicity.

Affirmative action is not intended for managers to hire slackers and lazy people.

Again, you presented another distortion on what affirmative action is.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants


Given your seemingly omniscience and omnipotence, I'm curious what a manager would say to a black employee who applies for a promotion, who is this hypothetical scenario, is in fact a slacker and incompotent.

The smart manager deals with the problem before this happens. This means keeping a good record of the accomplishments and problems of your staff.

If the guy is a slacker then give him verbal and written warnings. If the guy is doing a good job, send off an e-mail telling him he did a good job and keep a record of that email.

This is basic stuff these days. The only way to fire someone without getting sued is to keep a record of the problems and that record can also be used for determining promotions.

Good point Mr. Fun.

Managers do not have to promote from within a company. They can always look outside if there are no suitable candidates within the company.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by MrFun
Slacking and laziness are individual traits that are not related to race or ethnicity.

Affirmative action is not intended for managers to hire slackers and lazy people.

Again, you presented another distortion on what affirmative action is.

Are you refering to me, or Tingkai?

If you are refering to me you have simply dodged the question.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Tingkai


The smart manager deals with the problem before this happens. This means keeping a good record of the accomplishments and problems of your staff.

If the guy is a slacker then give him verbal and written warnings. If the guy is doing a good job, send off an e-mail telling him he did a good job and keep a record of that email.

This is basic stuff these days. The only way to fire someone without getting sued is to keep a record of the problems and that record can also be used for determining promotions.

Yet, in the case of a white person, given your omniscience, managers simply tell them, "Too bad, I can't hire you because of Affirmative Action"? So, you do, in fact, support treating cases with minorities in a different fashion, yes? In other words, unequal treatment of employees based on race.

Your little theory isn't consistent.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Tingkai
I'm completely sick of the whiners complaining about AA. They basically claim they want racial equality, but when any attempt is made to create this equality, the whiners start screaming their heads off like DarkCloud.

Let's face it. They don't want racial equality. They just want to keep things the same and that means a world where all the jobs go to white men.

Most companies don't even really have Affirmative Action. Managers just use it as an excuse to avoid telling slackers that they didn't get the job because they're incompetent.

AA has become a convenient crutch for slackers. They don't work hard and when they don't get a job, they blame it on AA.

Oh come on.
I want the best qualified man for the job- not a quota.

Rufus-

connections. AA could be thought of as compensating for that phenomena.

Compensating for one injustice in return for another is just as bad as in the first place-

How else are you going to create racial equality. If you have 100 workers and none are black then the only way to reduce the inequality is to hire a black person for the next open spot. You end up discriminating against the white person, but the alternative is to leave the situation the same.

You don't need to have 'equal amounts'
Racial equality is created through schooling- not putting incompetent people in jobs where they have no business being.
Start the equality at the school level- then AA will be shown to be useless.
-
Dalgetti had a good plan.

The racist hiring manager will always claim he made the hiring decision based on merit, but what is really happening is these some managers look at a black person (or whatever racial background)and think "he's not quite as good as the white guys cause black (or whatever racial background)."

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all managers are like this, but in this day and age, if a company has significant racial or gender inequality then you have to wonder about the racial attitudes of the managers.

Tingtai- I am not racist.
I hate racists... but my difference is that I hate them on both sides of te issue.

In an issue where they are of equal merit- I *may* support the "minority" receiveing the job, because I do realize taht discrimination still exists. But the problem is that AA creates anger at the minorities for "getting jobs they don't deserve" even in teh cases where they DO deserve the jobs!! And if they are no good at the jobs they get, then they are fired and that is attribuited to racism? IF AA Is taken away except for the hiring mechanism, then the fired could quite easily sue the company telling them that they had no better choice!
-
Roger, Urban Ranger

[MrFun]

WhiteElephant, if the employee is a slacker, regardless of race, then that person needs to be reprimanded, retrained, or fired.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by MrFun
WhiteElephant, if the employee is a slacker, regardless of race, then that person needs to be reprimanded, retrained, or fired.

And of course you would never insuate that a white manager reprimanding a black employee for "slacking" is a racist.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Racial equality is created through schooling- not putting incompetent people in jobs where they have no business being.
Start the equality at the school level- then AA will be shown to be useless.

You seem to be suggesting that the only reason blacks can't get job is because they are less educated. Is this what you are saying?

Originally posted by DarkCloud
But the problem is that AA creates anger at the minorities for "getting jobs they don't deserve" even in teh cases where they DO deserve the jobs!!

So what you are saying is that white folks get angry about the hiring of someone who is not white even when that person deserves the job. So this isn't about AA. It's about the hiring of people who are not white. In other words, the anger comes from racism, not AA.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants


And of course you would never insuate that a white manager reprimanding a black employee for "slacking" is a racist.

Would you accept the fact that sometimes the black employee is really lazy and sometimes the manager has it out for the employee because of skin colour?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants


And of course you would never insuate that a white manager reprimanding a black employee for "slacking" is a racist.

If that INDIVIDUAL black person was being consistently lazy, then he would need to be treated accordingly -- the same way that a white INDIVIDUAL person would be treated for being lazy.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Would you accept the fact that sometimes the black employee is really lazy and sometimes the manager has it out for the employee because of skin colour?

The real question is whether or not you would accept that sometimes the black employee is lazy and the manager doesn't have it out for the employee.

And you have to anwser how a manager is to respond to a minority employee seeking a promotion he does not deserve. In the case of a white employee you said they are simply told they can't be promoted because of affirmative action. What's the other side of the story?

So what you are saying is that white folks get angry about the hiring of someone who is not white even when that person deserves the job. So this isn't about AA. It's about the hiring of people who are not white. In other words, the anger comes from racism, not AA.

Given that it's a law based on race discrimination I would think it gives the racists "fuel for the fire", no? Because of this law no one can never know for sure why a minority was hired and therefore gives racists an excuse, no?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
The real question is whether or not you would accept that sometimes the black employee is lazy and the manager doesn't have it out for the employee.

And you have to anwser how a manager is to respond to a minority employee seeking a promotion he does not deserve. In the case of a white employee you said they are simply told they can't be promoted because of affirmative action. What's the other side of the story?

Given that it's a law based on race discrimination I would think it gives the racists "fuel for the fire", no? Because of this law no one can never know for sure why a minority was hired and therefore gives racists an excuse, no?

Oh course there are lazy and incompetent black people, just as there are lazy and incompetent [insert any race, nationality, creed here] people.

There may not be an easy excuses for minorities. That doesn't change the fact that AA is often an easy excuse for managers dealing with white men.

AA is just an excuse to hate and if the racist don't have this excuse, they'll find another. So there is no point in cancelling AA just because racists use it as an excuse.

If you don't have an official AA program then the racists will still say the minority person [for lack of a better description] got the job because of their colour or gender. Racists simply don't want to admit that the minority person got the job because of their ability.

And it is not just racists. It's far easier to use an excuse [I didn't get the job because: the manager is racist/the guy who got it sucked up to the boss/the manager is an idiot/and so on] rather than to tell yourself "I didn't deserve this promotion, I need to work harder."

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Tingkai
You seem to be suggesting that the only reason blacks can't get job is because they are less educated. Is this what you are saying?

No, I am saying that AA allows lesser educated people to get jobs... and the reason it was created in the first place was to help black people, that is why they were being used as an example, because they weren't as well educated as whites.

So what you are saying is that white folks get angry about the hiring of someone who is not white even when that person deserves the job. So this isn't about AA. It's about the hiring of people who are not white. In other words, the anger comes from racism, not AA.

No. Anger comes from AA which IS racist and leads to racism on both sides.

[MrFun]

I do not see any legitimate argument against affirmative action that uses the term reverse discrimination.

Many sociologists see reverse discrimination as an oxymoron, that has no basis in argumentation.