Where did the world's first civilization appear?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Same people. Just as Troy is also called Illium and maybe Wilusa. Assuming that anyone did actually conquer Troy. Agamemnon was the King of Mycenae.

So you say that the Minoans were the ancestors of the Achaeans?

There is ample archeological evidence of the Minoans and the Greeks. There is no actual Egyptian record of Atlantis. There is only Plato's claim of such a record. A record that someone else saw and not him.

Yes.

I suspect they are not what we think of as clocks. Perhaps a water clock. There were some clock like machines with gears in the Classical period anyway. Archimedes made some.

That's the ones. And it was clocks, as we think of them. With precision down to the mili second

A different language is a pretty good reason though. The same alphabet can be used for many different languages. Its just that is going to be very hard to figure out a long dead language. Maybe if there are ever enough bits and pieces of Linear A it will become managable. Its not Greek anyway.

How can you say so?
Linear B has definite Greek characters in their primary state.
It is also the basis of a theory that says the Greeks did not inherit their language from the Phoenicians.

Doesn;t Linear A includes such characters?

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

Eastern Mediterranean is part of the middle east.

True and false.

Greece and Cyprus are also part of the Eastern Mediterranean but not part of the Middle East.
Egypt is also part of the Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa but not part of the Middle East.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

east med means israel and neighbours.

No. That's Levante.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

and cyprus is considered to be part of asia, and not europe.

No. Cyprus in geographical books is always refered as part Europe.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

anyway, I don't think you could possible claim greece (incl. crete) to be the first civilization on earth.

The oldest settlement found in Greece is dated on 7th millenium BC.
Not the oldest but surely one of the oldest.
But Greece is poorly researched so there are many things to be found yet, perhaps even older.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

That's cause I haven't heard of any (semi)valid theories that there are east asian civilizations predating indian or middle eastern civilizations. If you know of any, please post them here.

There are several theories that samples of civilizations existed in Far East from the 7000 BC, even earlier.
Besides, the American "theories" are as valid as other "theories" that claim the existance of civilizations in the old world before 10000 BC.
You should had included Far East...
North Africa (Egypt) is also out of your options.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Generally by civilization we mean cities

True. Civilization is bound by the existance of a city/cities despite the fact that some times earlier, paleolithic cultures are also refered as civilizations too.

Jerico is indeed considered as the oldest city on earth but newer researches support that there are other cities as old as Jerico or even older.

But nothing is 100% certified, not even Jerico.

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

The oldest group of politically connected cities, as far as we know, are the Sumerian cities, so again, the first civilization started in the Middle East.

Newer archeologist tend to refer to this type of civilization as high level civilization, including also samples of writing systems. Summerians are regarded as the first high level civilization on earth but this is not final as theories refering to Egypt, India and China consider that those areas might have developed a high level civilization earlier.

Originally posted by Adalbertus

An interesting note: Stone circles like Stonehenge (very roughly 7000BC) were all shown to be constructed with the same basic unit of length.

Very unlikely that Stonehenge was built in 7000 BC.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

Anyway, what do you all think of the connection between new world and old world civilizations (tabaco and cocaine found in egyptian mummies)?

There are many theories that ancient civilization from the old world had visited the new world and they are very convincing in my opinion.

[Saint Marcus]

There are many theories that ancient civilization from the old world had visited the new world and they are very convincing in my opinion.

Or the other way around. Wasn't there a norwegian researcher that used a reed ship as traditionally made by the andes people, to sail to easter island and further on across the pacific?


And what do you all think of the 15th century turkish map (based on older maps), that shows not only parts of America, but of Antartica as well. The biggest mystery is that it shows antartica as it is without the ice.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

Or the other way around. Wasn't there a norwegian researcher that used a reed ship as traditionally made by the andes people, to sail to easter island and further on across the pacific?

Saint Marcus, it is well known that poeple from Asia built sea vessels and inhabitted the Pacific islands so it is natural that from the islands they could go back in Asia.

What I say is that ancient civilizations from the old world and not some Pacific tribes might have visited America long before the Vikings and Colombus.

There are several evidences about it. I had read an article that ancient Chinese and Greek anchors were found in American seas.

An ancient copper mined was discovered in the north part of South America. It was abandoned before it get depleted on the same period as the Minoans or Myceneans (don't remember which) were destroyed. If I remember correctly, Pre-Colombian civilizations never possed copper (can't remember correctly though so my appologies if I am wrong).

A sculpture was found in Central America and had a weel incised and I am not talking about a circle. But Pre-Colombian Americans didn't had the knowledge of weel.

Some sculptures discovered in America were of the same style of some Chinese preceded.

The Central American temples were aslo like pyramids but pyramids first constructed in Egypt.

A Olmec giant stone head representing a face clearly of negroic orientation but the were no blacks in America back then.

And some other stuff that I don't remeber right now.

Each one on its own might not be an evidence but all together can't be a coincidence.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

And what do you all think of the 15th century turkish map (based on older maps), that shows not only parts of America, but of Antartica as well. The biggest mystery is that it shows antartica as it is without the ice.

You must be refering to Piri Reis' maps.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Ethelred

As you say there is a flood story in Gilgamesh. The Israelites lived in the same area last I heard. They were not unrelated. Neither were the Greeks who also had a flood story. Everyone has a flood story. Its because every one has floods. However I do suspect the Greek, Sumerian, and Israelite stories were related. The Greek version is very different. The Hebrew version is obviously closely related. Some of the Greeks originaly came from Anatolia now Turkey. It is possible the Black Sea flood was the source of the stories.

The Gilgamesh version is the most believable of the three. Possibly because its the oldest and closer to the source. It doesn't claim a world wide flood.

I will have to disagree. A world wide flood had occured according to scientific researches but not in the size the myths are refering. When the last Ice Age ended around 10000 and the ices melted the sea level rised and thousands of square killometers submerged. That event passed from generation to generation and inevitable was magnified to what the mithology called the great flood That is what I believe.

[Ethelred]

So you say that the Minoans were the ancestors of the Achaeans?

Is my leg being pulled just because its April first.

I said the Achaen Greeks and the Myceneans Greeks are the Greeks. Not counting an invasion or two mixing up the gene pool during the following Dark Age.

After a bit of a search(my excuse to myself for spending time on this stuff - I am learning):

From http://www.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/ach_info.htm

.

The word "Achaea" was derived from Achaioi, which was used in the Iliad to mean "Greeks," especially the followers of Achilles and Agamemnon.

The Mycenean Greeks conquered the Minoans and based on the language the Minoans weren't Greek. At least Linear A can't be read and Linear B can. Linear B is Greek.

That's the ones. And it was clocks, as we think of them. With precision down to the mili second

That wasn't actually a clock for the time of day was it? Archimedes made a model of the planets. I doubt that its accurate to the millisecond. In any case Archimedes lived long after the time period we were discussing.

He didn't live in Athens or even the Agean. He lived in Syracuse, Sicily and was killed by a Roman soldier.

I did say the Greeks got around didn't I? ICS and all that.

How can you say so?
Linear B has definite Greek characters in their primary state.
It is also the basis of a theory that says the Greeks did not inherit their language from the Phoenicians.

Doesn;t Linear A includes such characters?

Linear B IS ancient Greek. Linear B was adapted from Linear A to fit Greek needs. Not very well adapted aparently as can be seen in the links.

I was going to put a couple of other links on linear b in but when I looked at this one that was in my Favorites I came to the conclusion the other two links were more than just a bit suspect. IE plagarized. It doesn't take a carefull analysis to figure it out either. Whole paragraphs were lifted for both papers.

http://tenaya.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/25.html

Linear A generates a lot of noise on Google. Witchcraft even. Linear Accelerators. That link above mentions it though.

Well here is something anyway:

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/script/linea.html

Not surprising there isn't much readily available on it since it can't be translated.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Is my leg being pulled just because its April first.

I said the Achaen Greeks and the Myceneans Greeks are the Greeks. Not counting an invasion or two mixing up the gene pool during the following Dark Age.

Excuse me but what you said was that before the Achaeans the Minoans attacked and that they were the descentants of the Achaeans...

The Mycenean Greeks conquered the Minoans and based on the language the Minoans weren't Greek. At least Linear A can't be read and Linear B can. Linear B is Greek.

Proto Greek, I'd say.

Again I ask for I don;t know, doesn't Linear A have a LOT of common aspects with Linear B?

That wasn't actually a clock for the time of day was it? Archimedes made a model of the planets. I doubt that its accurate to the millisecond. In any case Archimedes lived long after the time period we were discussing.

Yes you are 100% correct. It was a perfect rep[roduction of the solar system, With precise rotations and times of rotations.

Linear B IS ancient Greek. Linear B was adapted from Linear A to fit Greek needs. Not very well adapted aparently as can be seen in the links.

I was going to put a couple of other links on linear b in but when I looked at this one that was in my Favorites I came to the conclusion the other two links were more than just a bit suspect. IE plagarized. It doesn't take a carefull analysis to figure it out either. Whole paragraphs were lifted for both papers.

http://tenaya.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/25.html

Linear A generates a lot of noise on Google. Witchcraft even. Linear Accelerators. That link above mentions it though.

Well here is something anyway:

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/script/linea.html

Not surprising there isn't much readily available on it since it can't be translated.

I'll check the links later when I can. Thanks!

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Keygen


I will have to disagree. A world wide flood had occured according to scientific researches but not in the size the myths are refering. When the last Ice Age ended around 10000 and the ices melted the sea level rised and thousands of square killometers submerged. That event passed from generation to generation and inevitable was magnified to what the mithology called the great flood That is what I believe.

Well we do agree its not exactly what is described in the Bible and it was long before the Black Sea Flood. Most of the myths you will see claimed in Fundamentalist writings are actually new stories based on christian teachings. Others could very well be totaly independent. However considering that 100 year floods do come about once per hundred years and few ever experience two of them I think they are sufficient to cover most of the stories.

The end of the Ice Age did cause the sea levels to rise of course but that occured over a long period of time. Most humans were still pretty nomadic and they would never notice at all. As for the others I think 10,000 years is a very long time for such a thing to be handed down. Over that time the people would have experienced many severe floods.

In fact if you look at the Black Sea flood you will see that the sea levels still had reached there present level 5000 years after the end of the Ice Age. It took all that time for sea levels to rise high enough to overtop the Bospurus and the seas have only rose about 200 feet total from the Ice Age to now.

I suppose it could be that the Bosporus actually dropped though. It is a geologicly active region. A dozen feet or less could have made the final difference. Living in Southern California I notice things like that. The mountains are higher then they were when I was born. I can't see the difference of course.

I strongly suspect that the Black Sea flood is what is remembered in Gilgamesh although it could have been something that happened in Sumeria considering the 2000 year gap. It is a massive but localized flood in Gilgamesh. The biblical flood pretty clearly came from the Sumerian story. 3 day became 40 because different cultures have different magic numbers.

[Ethelred]

Excuse me but what you said was that before the Achaeans the Minoans attacked and that they were the descentants of the Achaeans...

Actually I don't think you can find me saying that anywhere.

I didn't even mention Acheans. Its barely in my vocabulary.

I had to look it up to be sure I had a clue. This stuff is hazy in my mind. I plead the fifth.

To quote what I actually said:

Same people. Just as Troy is also called Illium and maybe Wilusa. Assuming that anyone did actually conquer Troy. Agamemnon was the King of Mycenae.

Myceneans aren't Minoan.

Minoans aren't Mycenean.

Myceneans were Greeks.

It is actually a time period named after the Greek city of Mycenae. A city which Agamemnon ruled before his wife gave him the slice and dice treatment. Which he deserved really if the Illiead has it right that he sacrificed his own daughter.

Agamemenon who led the Greeks at Troy was the king of Mycenae. The Greeks are also called Acheans but I didn't use the word cause I never do except now.

Proto Greek, I'd say.

Again I ask for I don;t know, doesn't Linear A have a LOT of common aspects with Linear B?

Yes I said it did. Not the language but the alphabet. Since Linear B is derived from Linear A it must therefor have common aspects or no one would have ever thought that B was derived from A.

[Bereta_Eder]

it's foggy in mymind too I think you said that someone attacked Troy and before their descentants attacked it...

[Saint Marcus]

You must be refering to Piri Reis' maps.

Yes. Late 15th, early 16th century I believe. It included parts of America, and Antartica (just the continent, not the ice). It was remarkably accurate for it's time, and included parts of the world that weren't discovered yet. Plus, it showed antartica as it is under the ice. Is that mystery yet explained/clarified?

[Rasputin]

it appeared it syds mind !!! then came civ 2 then then Civ 3 !!

[Saint Marcus]

it appeared it syds mind !!! then came civ 2 then then Civ 3 !!

sorry lad, someone beat you to it.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by paiktis22
it's foggy in mymind too I think you said that someone attacked Troy and before their descentants attacked it...

Gee after I quoted it and you quoted it.

Troy as in the Illiad. Attacked by Mycenean Greeks led by Agamemnon.

It would be real hard for decendents to attack Troy before their anscestors did. Definitly foggy but then I have come to the conclusion you think in another language. Which explains things. English hard enough for native speakers.

I thought I saw you make a remark about living in Greece. You are supposed to more about this than I do.

Well I suppose there are people living in other countries that know more about Disneyland than I do living so close I can hear the fireworks. But I do know where all the bathrooms are. Well most of them. I refuse to go to the Bear Country Jamboree area ever again.