Where did the world's first civilization appear?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Gee after I quoted it and you quoted it.

Troy as in the Illiad. Attacked by Mycenean Greeks led by Agamemnon.

I'm sorry but I think you have it wrong here.

Troy was attacked by the ACHAEANS, not the Myceneans...

read Trojan Women by Euripides too.

You said that Myceneans attacked Troy that's where you lost me. ANd when I said that it was teh Achaeans who attacked you said that they were the descentants of Mycenaens...

you are getting me confused, or are you?

[Bereta_Eder]

Mycenaeans didn;t even were in the picture when the ACAEAN (let me say it again loud and clear ) attacked and after 10 years conquered Troy.

I honestly don;t know where you got the Mycenaeans from...(which were not Greek perse, the term Greek, or more precisely hellenic, was not even used back then). Think of Mycenaeans as the grandad's of some of the Greeks (or one of the 7 ancient races that "formed" the Greeks - alonmg the Ionians, the Dorians etc)

[Ethelred]

I honestly don;t know where you got the Mycenaeans from...(

Acheans ARE Greeks. The Mycenaen Greeks are named after the Greek city of Mycenae.

Now who led the Greeks that attacked Troy AKA Illium and Wilusa?

Agamemenon.

Where did Agamemnon come from?

Mycenae.

Athens is Greek. It was never conquered by the Dorians or anyone else till Sparta. So are you now saying that Athens wasn't Greek?

Acheans=Greeks wether the name was used early or not.

read Trojan Women by Euripides too.

A fictionalized account of a fictionlized account. Written long after the fact by someone that wanted to entertain.

ANd when I said that it was teh Achaeans who attacked you said that they were the descentants of Mycenaens...

I said no such thing.

Fourth time around for this.

Same people. Just as Troy is also called Illium and maybe Wilusa. Assuming that anyone did actually conquer Troy. Agamemnon was the King of Mycenae.

There is not one mention of descendents there. I said the same people. Just different terms.

you are getting me confused, or are you?

You are self confusing. I don't need to help you do that.

I may be wrong on some things but so far what you have done is reinvent what I said, change the meaning, and then disagree with what you think I said.

Please do try to stick with what I actualy said. I makes for much less confusion. I won't have to keep repeating the same thing with ever greater amplification.

NOW ONCE AGAIN

The people that attacked Troy also know as Illium and Wilusa were Greeks. They may not have been called Greeks by everyone or anyone at the time but most of the world calls them Greeks now. As for the later Greeks the Romans called them Acheans long after even you would admit they were Greek. So the word Achean is best used to generate confusion.

I might point out there never was a Trojan war. That is a Roman term. Homer called it the Illiad and the city was Illium. The Hittites called it Wilusa assuming they ever reffered to it at all. There are tablets that were found in the Hittite diplomatic archives that seem to refer to Wilusa in a way that implies it was the same city as Illium.

Names can generate much confusion. Germany is Deutchland and other things depending on who is calling it what. On top of which Deutch sounds like Dutch and English speakers call the Netherlands Holland and the people Dutch.

The Greeks were all over the area. There are different names for them in different places but they were still Greek even when controlled by Persia or mass murdered by Alexander somewhere near Afganistan.

Nevertheless they mostly came from the area that is now known as Greece. They are the source of the Greek language and Greek culture. Most of the others groups you mention also spoke Greek and had the same overall culture.

The Myceneans were Greek. Its a cultural and economic grouping united by a common language, alphabet, locality and time period.

The leader of the attacking alliance of Greeks possibly then called Acheans was Agamemnon. The King of Mycenae. Hence the name for that Agean and Mainland Greek culture is called Mycenaen.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Acheans ARE Greeks.

Where did you hear me saying anything different?

The Mycenaen Greeks are named after the Greek city of Mycenae.

ONCE AGAIN!!!! Mycenaeans were not Greek the way the latter Greeks were!!!
Call them proto-Greeks if it suits you... they were REPLACED.

Now who led the Greeks that attacked Troy AKA Illium and Wilusa?

Agamemenon.

Where did Agamemnon come from?

Mycenae.

And Ulysses was Achaean!!!

Athens is Greek. It was never conquered by the Dorians or anyone else till Sparta. So are you now saying that Athens wasn't Greek?

You are not making any sense.

Acheans=Greeks wether the name was used early or not.

By the time Achaeans showed up Greek civilization was as is known now

A fictionalized account of a fictionlized account. Written long after the fact by someone that wanted to entertain.

Based on Homer.

Please do try to stick with what I actualy said. I makes for much less confusion. I won't have to keep repeating the same thing with ever greater amplification.

I'm sorry but if you are looking for a pissing contest please look elsewhere!

So the word Achean is best used to generate confusion.

Listen carefully.

Troy was attacked by the Achaeans. They are the ones that the Troyans keep cursing thoughout Homer's epics and throughout all the ancient tragedies.


Get this well into your skull!

The Myceneans were Greek. Its a cultural and economic grouping united by a common language, alphabet, locality and time period.

Listen The Mycenean civilization is not DEFINITELY Greek. It has not been established.
Look I'm Greek I could very easily say that everyone in that region was Greek and be done with it.

Mycenaeans contributed to the birth of the Greek people but unlike the Macedonians for example they were not Greek in a way that characterises ancient Greeks.
As I said before call them their gradads

[Bereta_Eder]

And about you not saying anything about Mycenaneans and Troy...

Originally posted by Ethelred


Well as to how, the Mycenean Greeks aparently laid seige to Troy after the Thera eruption. So before that they should been able to do it to Knossos. Maybe they caught them unaware. There is some evidence that they did so in any case.

There you have it.

So what we have here is a failure to communicate.

And I think I have pinpointed it.

You claim that it was the Mycenaeans which actually invaded and captured Troy.

All the scriptures inticate that it was the Achaeans.

Mycenaeans, I repeat, had nothing to do with modern ancient Greece (try to udnerstand ) which was WHEN TROY was invaded.

[Bereta_Eder]

and another thing that you did point out and is credible.


Greeks were refered to by a myriad of Greek names by other people. (names of Greek "races")

The Persians called Greeks, Macedonians
The Troyians called Greeks, Achaeans

hell even the Turks now call Greeks, Ionians


So maybe Troyians (which were descentants of Greeks themselves, it was a Greek collony that Greeks wanted back) were refered to Greeks by using the term Achaeans.

But they never, AFAIK, used the term Mycenaeans in any way.

[Adalbertus]

The Persians called Greeks, Macedonians
The Troyians called Greeks, Achaeans

The Greeks called Greeks, Hellenes

Paiktis, I guess you are no more, perhaps a bit less, a classical Greek as Agamemnon was. A people naturally evolves with the time. AFAIK, there were several waves of similar people who entered Greece until 800 BC, a greater part already had arrived by the time of the Troyan war, some were to arrive, one had already an ancient Greek as language. Today, there is almost certainly some Roman and Turkish blood mixed in the pot, probably others, too. Don't worry about that. I'd call Germans from 500 years ago still Germans. The notion of Germany was formed in the 900's after the separation of the West and East Frankish Empire. And from the participants of the Troyan war I would suggest that this common notion already was formed for the Greeks in 1200BC. Who called themselves Greek as much as Plato did, which is not at all.

Calm down, both of you, it seems to be only about words.

[Ethelred]

Two two two posts in one

Reply to first post:

Originally posted by paiktis22

Where did you hear me saying anything different?

Every time you say the Myceneans weren't Greek.

ONCE AGAIN!!!! Mycenaeans were not Greek the way the latter Greeks were!!!
Call them proto-Greeks if it suits you... they were REPLACED.

Since the even you admit the people that attacked Troy were Greeks then you will have to accept the fact that the Mycenean Greeks were indeed Greek.

And Ulysses was Achaean!!!

And Mycenean. The one does not preclude the other.

You are not making any sense.

You are confusing yourself.

By the time Achaeans showed up Greek civilization was as is known now

IF the People that attacked Troy were called Acheans

AND the People that attacked were Greek

THEN the people that attacked Troy were Greek

GIVEN that the People that attacked Troy were also the Greek culture that is called Mycenean by historians

THEN the Myceneans were Greek

I really don't see how I can make that any clearer.

I'm sorry but if you are looking for a pissing contest please look elsewhere!

I am trying to clear up the miasma of confusion you are generating.

If I wanted a pissing contest flames would be involved and there would be no doubt that they were there.

Listen carefully.

Troy was attacked by the Achaeans. They are the ones that the Troyans keep cursing thoughout Homer's epics and throughout all the ancient tragedies.


Get this well into your skull!

I could swear you just said that Acheans were Greeks.

Now since the Mycenean Greeks are the same exact people that attacked Troy you might finally get the idea that the Acheans and the Myceneans are the same people. Different terms same people. One is for a place and the other is for a culture. Still the same people.

Listen The Mycenean civilization is not DEFINITELY Greek. It has not been established.

You just established it yourself.

The people that Attacked Troy were Mycenean because they came from cities that were Mycanean. Including Agamemnon from Mycenae.

Look I'm Greek I could very easily say that everyone in that region was Greek and be done with it.

Well then you would cut down on your level of confusion.

Mycenaeans contributed to the birth of the Greek people but unlike the Macedonians for example they were not Greek in a way that characterises ancient Greeks.
As I said before call them their gradads

You are having a difficult time with this. I can see that.

If the people that attacked Troy were Greek then the Myceneans were Greek since that is who attacked Troy.

Check the cities that were involved in the Trojan War. See how many kept records in Linear B. Those are members of the Mycenean culture.


Second Reply

And about you not saying anything about Mycenaneans and Troy...

I made no such assertion. Again you change what I wrote. Please stop doing that. Stick to what I said.

What I REALLY said:

There is not one mention of descendents there. I said the same people. Just different terms.

If you can't keep it straight just quote it instead of rephrase it. You get it wrong every single time you rephrase what I said.

So what we have here is a failure to communicate.
And I think I have pinpointed it.

Yes, you keep rephrasing what I say and then attack that instead of what I actually said.

You claim that it was the Mycenaeans which actually invaded and captured Troy.

I do indeed. They did. Assuming that is that they actually won the battle. The Acheans and the Myceneans are the same people. One is a place name and the other is the standard historical term for the culture that existed at the time of the Trojan War in Greece and other parts of the Agean.

All the scriptures inticate that it was the Achaeans.

They also call it ILLIUM and not Troy yet you keep calling it Troy anyway.

The Acheans were Greeks. The Acheans were members of the Mycenean culture. Mycenea is a culture and not a people. Two terms for one group.

Mycenaeans, I repeat, had nothing to do with modern ancient Greece (try to udnerstand ) which was WHEN TROY was invaded.

Try to understand. Mycenea is a culture period. Ancient cultural periods are given names. Some nationalities go through many cultural periods. The cultural period of the Greeks at the time of the War againt Illium or the Trojan War is named Mycenean.

You are trying to force two terms that describe the same group at that time to mean two different groups. They were one group with two terms that are used for them.

Also PLEASE quit restating what I say and changing the meaning in the process. It is the main cause of the confusion.

Acheans=Greeks and you said that yourself

Greeks at the time of the Trojan War were members of a culture known as Mycenean. The Myceneans were not a seperate race. They were not a seperate people. It is merely a specific term for the culture at that time period. Just as Greece at that time of Peracles is often called Paraclesion Greece.

The term Mycenean Greeks and Acheans is interchangeable at the time of the misnamed Trojan War.

This isn't a pissing match. Its an attempt to clear up the confusion. If you had checked out the links I posted you would see better what I am talking about.

I am sorry we are having a communication problem. I speak english as my native tongue and you don't. That may be the primary cause of you misunderstanding what I say.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by paiktis22

So maybe Troyians (which were descentants of Greeks themselves, it was a Greek collony that Greeks wanted back) were refered to Greeks by using the term Achaeans.

But they never, AFAIK, used the term Mycenaeans in any way.

While it is possible the the people of Illium were Greek they may have been of some other people. They definitly traded with Greeks. Last I saw the archeology is inconclusive but I haven't seen the latest stuff. Its in German.

Mycenean is a term historians and archeologists use for the Greek culture at that time period. I really doubt that a bunch of rabidly independent city states would accept being called by the name of another city. However they are all dead now and they can't defend themselves from the ravages of modern historians.

Even their graves have been robbed.

If the modern Greeks want to change the names they will have to start doing the archeology themselves. As long as they let the Americans, Brittish, and Germans do all the work they won't have any controll over the terms that are used.

[Sava]

Again, it depends on your definition of civilization.

The earliest records of a written language date to the Indus River valley around 5000 BC.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Adalbertus


Calm down, both of you, it seems to be only about words.

I KNOW that.

I am trying to clear them up.



I know what to do. As an American and therefor a member of English cilization there is always one good answer for messes.

Blame it on the French.

Doesn't matter if its true or not someone will agree.

Its all your fault Adalbertus.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sava
Again, it depends on your definition of civilization.

The earliest records of a written language date to the Indus River valley around 5000 BC.

This viewpoint is only popular with a few Indocentric anthropologists, everyone else is arguing between Sumer and Egypt.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Depends on how you define civilization.
For me, it's Here ! France !

[Bereta_Eder]

Ethelred
since you deny saying what I quoted you as saying, this really serves no purpose anymore.

I just hope that you are trolling because frankly I have rarely seen a person as thick as you my friend

In any case, keep believing whatever it is you are believing. Mycenaeans have no relation with Achaeans.
They were in completely different time frames and the ancient scriptures talk about Achaeans attacking Troy.
Agamemnon coming from an ancient Mycanaean city doesn't change that since Mycenaean cities were destroyed and rebuilt by new comer greek races.

But this is it.
Keep thinking what you are thinking and I;ll do the same for myself.

Everyone is happy and the western civilization remains safe.

Ok?

[Bereta_Eder]

As I said I will not try to educate you any longer.

But if you want to clear up your confusions and because I really like when people take interests of greek tales long gone I propose you to look at this website.

Battle of Troy: The Battle between Achaeans (Greeks) and Troyians.

Agamemnon and Achileas leaders of The Achaeans and so on.

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/ACHAEANLEADERS.html

Please read it carefully if very complete.

If you have anythign else to question and do so in a manner that at least I understand I'll be happy to tell you more.