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Where did the world's first civilization appear?

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  • since you deny saying what I quoted you as saying, this really serves no purpose anymore.
    I did no such thing. I denied your versions of what I said. I never denied the actual quotes merely your own misinterpretations of what I said.

    since you deny saying what I quoted you as saying, this really serves no purpose anymore.
    I wasn't trolling. Try a mirror. You are the one that is being obdurate here.

    Mycenaeans have no relation with Achaeans.
    You are mistaken. You clearly did not look at a single link I posted.

    You must have also forgoten who Agamemnon was and where he came from.

    They were in completely different time frames and the ancient scriptures talk about Achaeans attacking Troy.
    Its the same time. Historians use the term Mycenean. For the Acheans that attacked Troy AKA Illium.

    AKA means Also Known As.

    Agamemnon coming from an ancient Mycanaean city doesn't change that since Mycenaean cities were destroyed and rebuilt by new comer greek races.
    Really? Just who destroyed Athens? Athen was a myceanean city during the mycanean time period that ended after the Trojan War and not before.

    Those that were destroyed were destroyed AFTER the Trojan war.

    As I said I will not try to educate you any longer.
    You mean you will stop mistating what I REALLY said? Thank you thank you.

    From your link:

    "Mycenae, the leader of the Greeks in the Trojan war, and Nineveh, where was the royal palace of the Assyrians, are utterly ruined and desolate...Of the opulent places in the ancient world, Egyptian Thebes and Minyan Orchomenus are now less prosperous than a private individual of moderate means...Of Babylon that was the greatest city of its time under the sun nothing remains but the wall. The case of Tiryns in the Argolid is the same. These places have been reduced by heaven to nothing."
    Please note the reference to Mycenae as the leader of the GREEKS in the Trojan war. Note that destruction of Mycenae came AFTER the Trojan War.

    Now for some history instead of the legend and myth of the Illiad.

    From http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MINOA/MYCENAE.HTM

    The transition between the Middle and Late Helladic periods is indistinguishable, for the Greek settlers had begun building the rudiments of a civilization earlier in the millenium. Around 1600 BC, though, these urban centers began to thrive and the Greek settlers entered their first major period of cultural creativity. Their cities grew larger, their graves more opulent, their art more common, their agriculture more efficient, and the power of these new warlord cities began to be felt around the Aegean. This period of Greek development and prosperity is called the Late Helladic Period or simply the Mycenean period. The Greeks of this age are the Myceneans proper; for four centuries their culture thrived until it crumbled into the emptiness of history.

    For almost two thousand years, the Myceneans were lost to history except for their central position in Greek literature and mythology. For the Mycenean age found its voice in the poetry of Homer in a single defining event: the Mycenean war against Troy, a city in Asia Minor. But this poetry was regarded as fiction only until an amateur archaeologist named Heinrich Schliemann dug up the city of Troy in Turkey and later dug up the Mycenean cities of Mycenae (which gives the age its name) and Tiryns.
    Here is another

    Works of Homer at sacred-texts.com


    The Illiad is based on events which probably occurred around 1000 B.C.E. The Mycenean Greeks of this era were contemporaries with a Bronze age city in Asia Minor on the Aegean coast of what today is Turkey. Both these cultures employed megalithic architecture. Heinrich Schliemann, a German archeologist in the early 20th Century, excavated both Mycenae in the Peloponessus region of Greece, and another site in western Turkey which he identified as the actual city of Troy. 'Troy' was destroyed (sometimes by fire) and rebuilt--not once, but multiple times--and resembles closely the description of Troy in the Iliad. Whether the events in the Iliad are literally true in some sense is still unknown. The Odyssey, on the other hand, is pure fiction, and one must strain to correlate its plot with any actual geography or history; it has been called the first science fiction novel.
    Gee I am such a troll I back up what I say with facts. The facts must be causing the trollish skin condtion.

    I stand on what I said previously. Those do a nice job of backing it up. So did my previous links.

    Comment


    • BTW forgiveme for not correcting spelling mistakes but for some reason the connection to the Internet has grinded to a halt this past 20 minutes or so.

      "Let me dispell some rumours so they don't fester into facts"
      Kittin, Dead Poets Society.

      Frenchie, Greeks always called themselves Hellenes. They still do know.

      Greeks was a term given by the latins (those silly barbarians )

      According to myth the first Greek was Hellenos (hence Hellene) and his brother was Greckos (hence the Greek).
      That's about that.

      Another thing. Greeks called themselves Greeks (Hellenes) from the ancient times. It was a common identity that united many. From the Spartans and the Athenians to the Macedonians the Thebans, the Argolites etc etc etc

      Alexander the Great during the opening ceremony of the Olympics called upon Hellas, his country as he called it, to defend itself against the Barbarians.

      The word Hellene appears many many times in inumeramble ancient scriptures.

      If my internet connection was workinglike it always did I'd dig up all the quotes from the ancient works, believe you me and I will do so in the future.

      for the time being content yourself with this:

      "Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."
      (Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)


      About Germans. How can we not be grateful to the Germans and other Philellines that assisted us on retrieving ancient artifacts.
      Primeraly it was Germans.

      They do not define names and places. The ancient scriptures do that and of course we are in a better position to establish phrases and names than any other.

      Unfortunately some of the helpers (I'll say no names - ELGIN) did "help" too.

      Their help was to steal everything that was not attached and even some that were

      Comment


      • Take that, Moneypenny

        Originally posted by paiktis22
        Frenchie, Greeks always called themselves Hellenes. They still do know.
        Wouldn't you say that you were a citizen of Hell as well if you were living in Greece? I know that I would.
        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

        Comment


        • Hell is a nice little town in Norway. Or the Norse Underworld.

          The Norse word was borrowed to translate the Bible into English. Lots of different Greek and Hebrew words were all translated as Hell. Often the word that gets translated as Hell was Gehenna.

          Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.

          A nasty place to be sure.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ethelred
            Or the Norse Underworld.
            Hel is the Norse Underworld. Hell is another place alltogether.
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

            Comment


            • Ethelred,
              Mycanaeans are NOT perceived as Greeks. Greece by itself didn't even exist back then. Either you are using another name for them or you have a very bad source.

              In Greek it's ÌõêÞíåò.
              Since noone can be so wrong about a name I presume you are using bad sources.

              Mykines, Mycenaeans were a different civilization than what Greece (ancient Greece) has come to mean.
              It's as simple as that. Please check your sources because it seems to me you are quoting a theory that strives (for whatever reason) to portray Greece as continuity from times it didn't even exist as a whole.


              From Trojan women

              While to Achaean ships great store of gold and Phrygian spoils are being conveyed, and they who came against this town, those sons Of Hellas, only wait a favouring breeze to follow in their wake, that after ten long years they may with joy behold their wives and children


              Poseidon
              Ay surely; but I would fain learn thy wishes, whether thou art come to help Achaens or Phrygians


              ATHENA
              I wish to give my former foes, the Trojans, joy, and on the Achaean host impose a return that they will rue.

              ATHENA
              When they have set sail from Ilium for their homes. On them will Zeus also send his rain and fearful hail, and inky tempests from the sky; yea, and he promises to grant me his levin-bolts to hurl on the Achaeans and fire their ships. And do thou, for thy part, make the Aegean strait to roar with mighty billows and whirlpools, and fill Euboea's hollow bay with corpses, that Achaeans may learn henceforth to reverence my temples and regard all other deities.


              I can go on and I will with plenty more quotes from ancient scriptures when I have the time.


              Produce the same from ancient source please.

              Dinodo In Greek : Åëëçíåò Ellines.

              Comment


              • Frenchie (sorry keep forgetting your name).

                About mixing of blood. This is a very dangerous subject and one which I do not feel comfortable talking about.

                It leads to questions of race and I am not in favor of racial disctinctions.

                However I have to say that Greeks and Romans did indeed mix.
                Yet Christians Greeks and Ottoman Muslims did not. It was considered a mortal sin to marry a muslim.
                Turks did however snatch little boys from the embrace of their mothers and raised them as turksish warriors. Many of them are now Turks of Asia Minor that indeed have some Greek blood in them.
                This is also the case for the Region of Pontos. (NE Turkey - former conquests of Alexander the Great and the Eastern Roman Empire)

                During Byzantium different ethnic groups remained painstackingly separated. That is why we still have a Vlahoi (a very funny minority indeed) as well as the Arvanites who do speak Greek and are Greek in every way.
                I do not like separations based on race though.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by paiktis22
                  Dinodo In Greek : Åëëçíåò Ellines.
                  Same to you, Bastard! How dare you insult me like that?!?!
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                  Comment


                  • I did not call you mississippppian.

                    Comment


                    • Blame it on the French.
                      Doesn't matter if its true or not someone will agree.
                      Its all your fault Adalbertus.
                      I also know what to do
                      (sneaks homeward to Cologne)

                      AND DON'T CALL ME FRENCHIE


                      Normally I would be curious to ask paiktis22 to which period of time he would assign the Myceneans and to which the Troyan war (1200 BC? 1000BC?), but as I fear that it results in a big explosion I refrain from doing so.

                      BOOM!!
                      Why doing it the easy way if it is possible to do it complicated?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DinoDoc


                        Hel is the Norse Underworld. Hell is another place alltogether.
                        Its the same place from what I can tell. The word was adapted for the Bible. Really. Spelling changes over time. Especially with English. Maybe it was chosen because it a sounds a bit like Sheol. It may have come from a slightly different word but the root would have been the Norse underworld. A very different place from the moder christian hell.

                        The dictionary I just looked in mentioned helan a old English word for conceal. Old English had a lot of norse in it and anything in hel was certainly concealed.

                        And there is no such word as Hell in the Bible in the original languages. It really is often Gehenna in the New Testatment. A garbage dump. A really nasty hot miserable awful foul putrid garbage dump. But still a garbage dump no matter how awful it was.

                        Its often a replacement for other words, Sheol for instance is the abode of the dead. Sometimes its Hades. But sometimes its Gehenna.

                        Maybe the Jews dumped unpleasant people in the garbage instead of burying them on occasion.

                        Comment


                        • you don't like frenchie??
                          ok froggy I won't call you that!



                          Listen I don;t claim to hold the never fading torch of absolut truth in my hands. Actually I know next to nothing when it comes to ancient Greece compared to many of my compatriotes.

                          But what I do know is what I do say.

                          Greeks were refered to as Achaeans.

                          Wether Mycenaeans were active at the time the Trojan war happened is less important to what we are discussing here.
                          Je crois en tous cas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by paiktis22
                            Ethelred,
                            Mycanaeans are NOT perceived as Greeks. Greece by itself didn't even exist back then. Either you are using another name for them or you have a very bad source.
                            I could swear you said the Achean were greek. That is back then.

                            In Greek it's ÌõêÞíåò.
                            Since noone can be so wrong about a name I presume you are using bad sources.
                            I am not wrong. I am using good sources. I even used YOUR source to make a point. You didn't look at those links did you?

                            Mykines, Mycenaeans were a different civilization than what Greece (ancient Greece) has come to mean.
                            It's as simple as that. Please check your sources because it seems to me you are quoting a theory that strives (for whatever reason) to portray Greece as continuity from times it didn't even exist as a whole.
                            I posted two nice links. How about YOU look at them. I did point out that I use English didn't I?

                            I just tried Mykines on Google. Guess what came up?

                            Mycanea. On a Greek site. It calls it Greek.



                            I really don't care what Trojan Women says. It isn't reality and it isn't modern historical nomenclature which is what I am using.

                            You do know that Athena and Poideiden didn't really exist don't you? So then you should also know a play using them is not the same thing as using standard historical and archeological terminology.

                            I can go on and I will with plenty more quotes from ancient scriptures when I have the time.
                            I am sure you can. Its an utter waste time. Not because I won't listen but because YOU aren't listening.

                            Mycanean IS A MODERN term. Please understand this time. Its not and never was a term used by ancient greeks. It is the STANDARD word for greek culture of the time of the Trojan War.

                            For example, I guarantee you the Clasical Mayans never ever called themselves Clasical at any time ever. Not even translated into Mayan. Hower it is still standard terminology for the Mayan culture of a specific time period. I forget the time something like 600-800 AD is what is in my mind.

                            Do try actually looking at the link I posted instead of ignoring them. I looked at yours. I didn't see one thing there that gave me any reason to abandon modern historical terms for the Mycanean culture.

                            Since you have consistantly said the Acheans were greeks or then the Mycaneans were Greek. Since the Acheans at Troy were the exact same people that historians call Mycenaean Greeks.

                            You can either say the Acheans weren't greek or you can say they were. Either way historians and archeologists call them Myceneans Greeks.

                            I have been seeing that term consistently for twenty years. Not just one source, every one of them in the English language.

                            Comment


                            • you don't care what the Trojan Women of Euripides say...

                              Very well.

                              do you care what ANY of the ancient scriptures say?

                              Where do you think we get all this info about ancient Greece?

                              Look, this has got beyond ridiculous.

                              Let us sum up:

                              You accept that accrding to ancient texts, the ONLY source we have and where EVERYTHING is based save archeological artifacts, it was the Achaeans who ravaged Troy.

                              This is a start.


                              Where we do continue to differ is in your misinformed opinion about Mycenaeans.
                              Come to Greece and visit the national achaeological museum of Athens. See for yourself the finds and the texts.

                              Mycaneans were not Greek in the way that Greece is thought of.

                              In ancient scriptures achaeans were Greeks and it was them who attacked Troy.

                              Now wether Mycaneans were the Achaeans, it is the first time I hear of this. If this stands then wer are both correct.

                              But you have to give me hard evidence for that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adalbertus


                                I also know what to do
                                (sneaks homeward to Cologne)

                                AND DON'T CALL ME FRENCHIE
                                Never. The technical insult is Frog. I have no idea why.

                                Whenever I play the French in Civ III I change the terms for accuracy sake.

                                I keep changeing the Title to Citizen but I still get called Madame. Annoying.

                                I wanted Richelieu and what I got was Jean D'arc Anglicized. Rats. Pink Musketeers. Vile. Still it has the attributes I like.

                                Comment

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