Abortion: A 'right' that is wrong? (two theses for debate)

[Rex Little]

whom ever said an abortion in the first trimester is only "contraception" is not being very smart.

Read a little more carefully. I said that before the first trimester it's contraception. Just having fun with what was no doubt a slip of the keyboard on Ramo's part.

[November Adam]

Opa my mistake... sorry bout that then.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Rex Little
Irrelevant and immaterial. I could just as well say that it gets rid of potential thieves and murderers. Neither has anything to do with the question of whether it should be prevented by force of law.

Irrelevant and immaterial to those who ignore the theme of the statement. Tiamat and others have asserted that abortion is none of your business unless you are the expectant mother. I gave an example of how it is the business of others since abortion weakens our economy and thereby lowers our overall standards of living. When you attack a statement, attack a statement in its entirety, don't just throw up strawmen by selectively editing sentences. The full quote was, "While I admit it is cliché, abortion robs the economy of potential customers and workers, and has led to an aging population which will find it more and more difficult to pay its social security benefits." The weakening of Social Security is big news to those of us with any sense of forward-thinking, and has become big news recently as the Japanese government has begun encouraging its citizens to have more children in order to prop up an aging population.

Furthermore stating that it gets rid of potential thieves and murderers is barbaric at best and certainly not a sound opposition. I believe, and I think reasonable people would concur, that the average person is more useful to society alive than dead. That is to say, even in callous economic terms, the typical person will provide more service to society than they will take away in criminal activity. If the average cost of a human being is X, and their economic contribution is Y, then Y is generally greater than X. This is why regions with growing populations tend to be wealthier than regions with shrinking populations or rural areas. People are wealth producing machines, and abortion robs society of the potential wealth.

[Rex Little]

I never said that "it gets rid of potential thieves and murderers" is a sound argument for abortion--obviously it's not. What I'm saying is that "it costs the economy producers and consumers and weakens Social Security" is equally invalid. The potential value that a child has to other people--"society", if you like--does not justify forcing its mother to carry it against her will, any more than the value of someone's service justifies enslaving that person for any other purpose.

[TCO]

I could be wrong, but...

I don't think there is a legal right to abondon your 5-year old to the state.

[blackice]

none of your business unless you are the expectant mother.

It takes two to tango "meaning" F*** the Dad heh interesting how 50% of the population is ignored...Why?

[MrFun]

EDIT, EDIT

Another freakin' double post!!

Read the post immediately after this one.

[MrFun]

I am pro-choice, and support abortion in cases of rape and endangerment of mother's life.

Now, if the to-be husband (in the endangerment case, not rape)cares about the wife and the unborn baby, and has been there consistently for her, then he DEFINITELY has the right to know what the mother is considering.

It's called a relationship.

[blackice]

I agree relationship or not though he may care about his unborn child...now tell me what merit or reality does that play in todays society?

[MrFun]

What do you mean what merit does relationships play in today's society in regards to abortion??

I'm afraid I do not understand your question. Can you rephrase it??

[Adalbertus]

Apparently nobody noticed that Tia has given the most prominent reasons why men have not only the right but also the obligation to discuss this topic

how do I tell his family, ... will he help

Basically, I'm against any killing of anyone, including a fetus (a simple gene test can tell that a fetus is not part of the mother's body, btw.)

You have no idea the depths that a decision like that effects your life, not just for that moment but for the rest of your life.

I seriously require of anyone, be it man or woman, to think about this before having sex. And prepare to face the consequences. Anybody is responsible for their children and them they have slept with.

Things are different, when the mother's life is in danger, because then it's life against life, and in this case I would think, not the life of the mother, but her being stronger embedded in social relations is what counts.

So far about the ideal world, which the present one is not. I don't want to discuss cases like the German politician who said something along the line that she thinks two abortions are not many for a 16 year's sexual life full of pleasure. I don't have any sympathy for this attitude.
There are more than enough women who have problems with abortion. In those cases I would think they would be better off if they are given a chance to keep their child. This is a thing a society (personal environment + state) has to provide.

So it is not done with simply stating by law that abortion is illegal and must be punished. (The legal stuff would be quite easy in the case of rape: Condemn the rapist for the abortion - if you can get him). It is a major change in the society which is necessary to become more human for women and children. As it is now, it goes too much in the sense father beats mother beats older child beats younger child. Is the problem solved when you forbid older child to beat younger child? No. Applied to the situation here: man rapes woman (or leaves her because of the pregnancy) kills child. Is this the society you want to live in? I don't.

Personnally, I follow what I've outlined here, but I cannot improve the world

[blackice]

"Is this the society you want to live in? I don't. "

Me either but morally challenged people seem to be the norm here...


On another note several cases of men being charged with murder after killing an unborn child strikes me as a double standard anyone else?

[Ramo]

Rex, I was actually explaining ck's comment. have a lot of sympathy for that position, but I cannot committ myself to it. I'm afraid it opens a big can of worms with respect to parental authority in general. For instance, if a woman cannot be coerced into carrying the fetus during the rest of the pregnancy, why should parents be coerced into driving their kid to the adoption agency? What if technology is developed such that a fetus could be removed from the womb without damage? Does it suddenly become illegal for a mother to terminate her pregnancy during her later stages?

[Rex Little]

What if technology is developed such that a fetus could be removed from the womb without damage? Does it suddenly become illegal for a mother to terminate her pregnancy during her later stages?

As I said earlier, that's exactly what I think should happen. More precisely, it should be illegal at that point for her to terminate by killing the fetus. If she wants to have it removed alive and adopt it out, fine.

if a woman cannot be coerced into carrying the fetus during the rest of the pregnancy, why should parents be coerced into driving their kid to the adoption agency?

IMO, the parents have a certain amount of legally enforceable responsibility for the child's life. That amount includes making a reasonable effort to hand that responsibility over to someone else if they no longer want it--when that is possible. It does not include the mother carrying an unwanted burden around for another seven or eight months inside her body. I don't have a rigorous philsophical justification worked out for this; it just seems sensible.

[Adalbertus]

It does not include the mother carrying an unwanted burden around for another seven or eight months inside her body.

Although this argument is understandable I don't like this point of view. The eighteen years to follow are much harder work than the nine months before (usually at least). This is the time where a mother needs, and has the right for, support.