How to shut up an anti-semite.......

[Keygen]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

Posh!
I can argue that MY ETHNIC GROUP has a right to ISRAEL. In fact I could argue that my ethnic group "has a right" to pretty much any place.
Isn't it time that people saw beyond "ethnic groups" and realized that the only thing that matters is them.

There is no reason for one group to claim another area- this is why we have wars.
Alsace-Lorraine-> WWI
The Continuing Conflict In the Middle East
etc. ad. infinitum.

That would be the ideal world DarkCloud.
I hope we could live in such a world.
But that doesn't happen. When a group of people leave their land and take by force their neighbor's land I give the right to the latter to claim it back. What would you do if your neighboring country would decide to invade your country and conquer it by force? Would you accept that?

Perhaps if there had been no conquers at all there had been no re-claims as well.

Originally posted by DarkCloud

as long as it isn't going to be a religious nation on "holy ground"

Holy ground is not necessary a religion matter.

Originally posted by DarkCloud

Lets say that I find some ancient scrolls- and it says that Norway has a right to Denmark... Do I have the right to take over denmark- kick all the Danes out and replace them iwth Norwegians? Just because of some useless old scroll that is only good for historical knowledge and study?

It's not the same. It is not an ancient scroll that was found and mentioned that long ago Hebrews or Palestinians lived once in Palestine. We are talking for a long continuing presence there from both sides. Hebrews have been inhabiting there for 3000 continuing years and Palestinians for 1400 years. Since antiquity and until 1948 none had a state. The Hebrews grew more, the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs got worried, the war started and the Hebrews won and formed their independed state. In the meanwhile United Nations tried to share the lands between them but none agreed. War broke and continued, the Americans supported Israel for their own interests, All the surroundings were extremely hostile and didn't want any Hebrew at all in the area so it end up in this detonating situation. I give the right to both sides but the wars were started by the Arabs, maybe justified or not. I am not into the very details.

[DarkCloud]

But Keygen, the right to the land goes to the owners- regardless of how they received it.

The problem with the argument I wrote in the sentence above, I do realize is that it gives BOTH palestine and Israel equal claims.

Thus, the easiest thing to do is to create a cooperative non-religious, non-ethnic government which ignores the ethnic groups and relies instead upon merit for granting land.

The merit being the deeds, etc. that still remain.

We are talking for a long continuing presence there from both sides. Hebrews have been inhabiting there for 3000 continuing years and Palestinians for 1400 years.

BUt keygen, it is the natural thing of people to move around. People move. Groups move. That is why no one group should be able to claim one area unless they currently possess it.

As I have said before, the sooner ethnic groups are done away the better. Sadly, I do not have many solutions for them to live together nowadays- I doubt anyone does, they would have to be experts on all groups to do such a thing.

I merely suggest that there become none.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Posh!
I can argue that MY ETHNIC GROUP has a right to ISRAEL. In fact I could argue that my ethnic group "has a right" to pretty much any place.

I bet you couldn't

Isn't it time that people saw beyond "ethnic groups" and realized that the only thing that matters is them.

I disagree.
A group, any group, gives one security, and a force bigger than him.

Since conflicts are a part of life, one has to have a group supporting him, or else he will lose.

There is no reason for one group to claim another area- this is why we have wars.

We have wars because they are conflicts on a large scale.

You can not avoid that.

You simply can try and not have any random wars, or try and suggest other solutions.

But war is here to stay. For ever. Period.

This makes no sense.
If humanity was young, then there would be less opportunity to divide.

Now you make no sense.

So the developement of humanity gives more opportunity to divide?
This is counters your point of human future being in togetherness.

Okay, I understand WHY people divide themselves. It gives them a sense of "identity" and "security" but it also causes strife and problems because invariably one group will say that they are better than another or have a "right" to an area.

strife and such exist because we are social beings.

I am not a group. I sometimes too have conflicts with other people.

No one has a right to an area because their ancestors lived there.

Everyone has a right to have a place to live. Groups too.

If a group has a tie to a land, and has no other place to be in, they should get a right in that place.

You can not and should not right wrongs that occurred thousands of years ago.

but the wrong of the Jewish people hasn't occured 2000 years ago.

The whole point is that it "continued".

It's not that we suddenly wanted a state. We had none - and we suffered.

So sometime, we said enough is enough.

If that happened then everyone would be going around blind and toothless.

I don't know..

People should merely do things that affect them particularly. If they can right the wrong in their lifetime, then they should do as such unless they are willing to forgive. If not, then there are no reasons for their family to continue the feud.

I agree, but the relations between groups are different.
Groups work on larger scales of place, quantity and time.

(And yes, I do have some minimal understanding about Jewish ideas about inherited sins of their fathers; and no, I do not agree with it, thus, I have a feeling that unless I can disprove that Idea, I cannot truly argue with you- correct?)

Not correct.

First - it's an idea which you can't "disprove".
You can support or resist it, and we can argue, but there is nothing you can disprove to show it is wrong. That's the whole point.

And personally, I disagree with inherited sins, and some of the writers of the bible do too.

They are both ethnic cleansing.

Fine then -reinstate Israelis.

As I said before, I am neither pro-palestinian nor pro-israeli. Athough I will note that In an intenet test I scored as such:
Pro-Peace Palestinian- 60%
Pro-Peace Israeli- 50%
etc. Palestinian alternating with Israeli in the Neutral and the conservative elements of the test.

Oh well.
You're a leftist.
there are leftists Israelis.

The palestinians aren't really leftist, but are using the leftist's ideas for their propoganda war.

But fearing war, no?
Since they still owned the legal rights to their property, then they do have a right to demand it (at least the owners themselves do)

Tsk tsk.

Most never owned legal rights to their property.

Until the jews and brittish came, the idea of "owning" land wasn't all too popular.

Most of the land in the ottoman empire was "leased" to the people, which could use it as they saw fit.

Meaning - if you come and a place is free, you can settle there. So many people simply came and settled.

Jews however, didn't have such rights, and therefore had to purchase land, esp. when they wanted to "own" it for themselves.

The arabs however, didn't understand how could we have come and bought land, and then want it for ourselves. They saw the grass and water as God-given. And then some muslim ideas, about muslim land having to stay in muslim hands, kicked in as well.

Because if people dont live together, it leads to war.
If you ahve ever watched Demolition Man and seen the society of the future in that movie- that is my idea of a perfect society.

Well your idea is sick.
I would get bored to death in a perfect society.

Not to mention this will NEVER happen. EVER.

No one is forced to be moral and good, if they want they can die and live in the caves, but the people who are enjoy their lives above ground.

Sure.

No one is forced to be moral and good here too. If they want, they can live in jails.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
And about the Jewish settlement- I would truly doubt that I would be happy if suddenly a new nation sprung up right next to my country- and not just any nation- but a nation founded on a religion. (I do realize that many others were) but especially in my holy land.

If they bought the land, it's their right.
Jews bought land.

In any case, the idea of a jewish state was to devide palestine, and cooperate with a neighbouring arab states, allowing arabs to live in Israel, if they want.

It failed since instead, the arabs decided to have only one state - their own.

If the borders of Israel were completely open to anyone and they hadn't kicked the Palestinians out- I would support them 95%. As it is, it is 50-50.

Look, we hadn't "kicked" anyone out.

We did make sure for some to leave, which was because of tactical goals during the 1948 war.

But then, we couldn't simply allow everyone to return. Because we didn't have any peace agreements, we couldn't know whether those arabs returning would be a fifth-column.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Sirotnikov- you are showing what damage comes of religion and nationalities- you are generalizing the Arabs into all haters of Jewish peoples- you are also showing that you think your people "have a right to this land"

Each time I speak of palestinians or arabs, I mean that as a group name for those whom I mean, simply because that's the best I have.

It would be stupid to each time say "a group among the palestinians which is limited by such and such opinions and has performed this and this, performed this and this".

well... Unless you have a deed- and bought the land from the previous owners then you don't.

First = i think people do have a right to a land.
Historically - Jews have a right to this land much more than most palestinians.

Practically - Jews had right to the land they purchased, and the land that was attributed to them by the UN.

However, since, on the eve of 1948, the arabs decided to solve this using might, then I think they should accept the results.

It's quite two-faced of them. First they resort to might, and when it fails, suddenly they say that might ain't right.

I assure you, that had the arabs won, they would have slaughtered and deported the last jews, and there would be none here now.

The fleeing arabs became refugees- they wanted to come home. (from what I understand)

It would surprise you, that often refugees don't come home?

The arab countries however, were most unpleasant, and disallowed many to live as human beings, and instead insisted on making them live in camps, for over 50 years.

They just worsened the problem.

In 48, they were some 500,000 people.

Today they are some 4.5 million!
Israel can't possible reinstate their belongings, not to mention, 4.5 million people will not fit into the homes of 500,000 people.

Nor can Israel realistically support 4.5 million more people. Esp. hostile ones.

Lets say that I find some ancient scrolls- and it says that Norway has a right to Denmark... Do I have the right to take over denmark- kick all the Danes out and replace them iwth Norwegians?

Who said anything about kicking out?

Jews never intended to do such things.

However this is what the war caused. Instead of perpetuating the refugee status, it should have been resolved back then.

But it isn't possible to return any of them, until peace is signed.

Just because of some useless old scroll that is only good for historical knowledge and study?

It depends, on whether the norwegians have need for this.

Recently, there were found scrolls which proved that the Jewish foundation had rights to a plot of land in Syria. People jokingly suggested to give it back to them in exchange for the Syrians giving up the Golan heights.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

Thus, the easiest thing to do is to create a cooperative non-religious, non-ethnic government which ignores the ethnic groups and relies instead upon merit for granting land.

DarkCloud, I am not a religious man and I strongly support the European integration but I cannot condamn poeple for believing in a religion or nationality. It's their right. What they should do is cooperate. You can't have without give.

Originally posted by DarkCloud

BUt keygen, it is the natural thing of people to move around. People move. Groups move. That is why no one group should be able to claim one area unless they currently possess it.

Yes, I agree. People move and they should move but peacefully. Regarding the owning part I think Siro answered that but poeple own only a part of a country. The rest belong to a the state. Palestine was under Ottoman and British ownership and now is owned by the Israeli state.

Originally posted by DarkCloud

As I have said before, the sooner ethnic groups are done away the better. Sadly, I do not have many solutions for them to live together nowadays- I doubt anyone does, they would have to be experts on all groups to do such a thing.

I merely suggest that there become none.

I see only two solutions. Either both live equally and peacefully together or form their own independed states. But I have the feeling that the hate between them is too strong to let either solution be viable.

I just quote the words of both sides on a recent Greek journalistic mission in Palestine:

Palestinian (survived after an Israeli attack in his office afew months ago): "What ever they do to us, the assasinations of civilians are unjustified. When you face cruelty with cruelty you become the same with your enemy."

Israeli ( Reserve official, deny to serve in the occupied areas): "I will fight to defend my country from any attack. But I will not go as conqueror, in the lands of another nation, who now is fighting as we were fighting the English conquerors once."

I am sure that there are other people who think like them too from both sides.

The leadership from both sides if would have the dare to listen words like these then things could be better down there...