How to shut up an anti-semite.......

[Natan]

Yeah, I really don't understand why both sides try to show that they were there "first" when their real claims are based on their presence right now. Even if we only went back 100 years, Palestinians would be forced to leave certain areas where they are now the majority and Jews would have little land at all. If we went back 2,000 years, things would get more confused without benefitting either side much, since genetic studies have proved that Palestinians and Jews are closer to each other genetically than they are to Egyptians or even Syrians.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Keygen

(dug was the second)
I fully support his statement. AT least that one.

Israelis have no more right to the land than the Palestinians who were unlawfully kicked out.

I have noticed that the most common argument of the people who disagree with the establishment of Israel is that they came after the Palestinians. Like nobody ever read about the history of Middle East. Where were those Palestinians when Hebrews first settled there 3000 years ago?

I cold always argue that the Palestinians were there over 3000 years ago because of Haggar and that they were kicked out of Abraham's land by Issac's father. But I wont... Ancient history does not matter- If I wnated to I could argue that the Italians still have a right to france, which they dont... This is why I do not like nationality- I believe nationalities are evil and like race, should be abolished. There should be an agreed set of festivals which all people celebrate and there should be one nation.

Does anyone knows that the Babylonians when conquered Israel destroyed their temple (the most sacred symbol of theirs) and forced all Hebrews to leave their home and serve them as slaves in Babylon in the 6th century BC? They have been forced to leave Palestine many times in the past by many different conquerors.

I have the feeling that the newer nations can't understand terms like instauration

So? How do past events affect the future- the people who conquer the land have the right to own the land. The people who are conquered have the right to dissent. That is the way things are. I do disagree with, however, the way that the Palestinians were wholesaledly forced to leave their homes by the British and Jewish peoples.
-
Listen, everyone should live together- correct?
But I can see why the Palestinians were angered- there was no real war- yes there was a war, but it was not excessively large (at least as I understand it->apologies because most of my experience is limited to survey knowledge->I study European History more than Jewish history) However, The Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.

And just how legal is that of a fundamentalist religious government- I mean, it could be if over 90% of the people in a country were that religion- but that is not the case, and thus, it is just not fair.

Religion and politics dont mix when there are too many diverse religions in each sector. The Jews and Muslims should co-govern the land; not split it up more.
-
And In the end I shalt say this:
I am not Anti-semitic, I am not Anti-Palestinian, I equally dislike Muslims,Christians,Atheists,Jewish people, Buddhists, etc.
I believe in equality of dislike.
-
I would also like to say that I support Natan and Rogan Josh's arguments.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


You are not getting this are you?

It doesn't ****ing matter what the history is. It doesn't ****ing matter what happened 3000 years ago. All that matters are the people. Anyone born in Irael/Palestine should have the right to live there, unpersecuted for their religion and with a say in their government. It shouldn't matter what their colour is, or their religion or their political persuasion.

Is this relative to my answer to DarkCloud?

Did I mentioned that Palestinians don't have the write to live there as well?

Of cource both have the right to live there. My argument was that Hebrews too have the right to live there and have their own independed state.

History doesn't matter? What ingorance
So if I come to your house and kick you out you don't have the right to come back and kick me out? Geez, I hope you have a better house than I have 'cause I am comming to kick you out

OK, things are more complicated than that but you can get an idea that because of historical reasons both Hebrews and Palestinians have the right to live there while if the Germans would claim the area would be great unjustice indeed.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

I believe nationalities are evil and like race, should be abolished. There should be an agreed set of festivals which all people celebrate and there should be one nation.

DarkCloud, you know that nationalities exist and all people all over the world strongly support it. I wish to live and see the entire world united as one state but retaining nationalities in a degree is not something to easily abandon, not even for me.

Originally posted by DarkCloud
However, The Palestinians were forced to leave their homes.

After the colapse of the Ottoman empire Hebrews started returning to their old homelands. The migration got more intence during 30s and 40s. Palestinians started feeling threaten by the increasing number of Hebrews in the area. I can understand them but I do understand the right of the Hebrews returning home. Palestinians started harrasing the "newcommers". Hebrews fought back. Then the Palestinians and the arabs from the surrounding areas attacked the Hebrews in an open war. And the whole thing started. So historically the beginning of the fight was made by the Palestinians/Arabs.

What I don't like in the modern Israel however is that although they have the power to satisfy the Palestinians the don't do it. They got greedy. They even assaninate Rabin, the only person that could equally share the lands between both sides and end the Palestinian issue.

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I believe in equality of dislike.

I beleive in the equality of like

[Pekka]

I hope Sweden doesn't give us ultimatum and claim their old lands back, because they were here. I couldn't see myself packed with c-4 in stockholm.

[Pekka]

I apologize for my last one. Bad joke, very bad.
And i'm not israelbiased, but i'm not propals either.
I have a great solution to this of my own. Lets develop a new bomb called 'memoryloss' and bomb israel and palestine with it. Then when they all wake up, they don't remember a thing. Then we destroy all the newspapers etc, and say they're the best friends.
And while we're at it, we should also bomb this memorybomb to all countries. No one would remember differencies, or history, wars etc. Before we do that, let's destroy all other weapons too.
Before bombing we should also remake some stuff like forget the idea of national borders and nationalities. Also new priorities that are different from power and money and ownership and products.
Who wants to see this bomb used ? I do!

Oh damn, i just realized i sound like a dirty hippy. I should kick myself in the nuts.

ps. also fast internet connections to all before bombing!

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by Keygen
History doesn't matter? What ingorance
So if I come to your house and kick you out you don't have the right to come back and kick me out? Geez, I hope you have a better house than I have 'cause I am comming to kick you out

His point is that the people who live there now are the ones that matter. Not someone with a claim based on some long dead ancestor. So, certainly he would have the right to kick you out of his house, but he wouldn't have the right to kick you out of a house that some ancestor of his was kicked out of 3000 years ago. My ancestors on my paternal grandmothers side had a farm taken from them when they fled the US due to being United Empire Loyalists (i.e. they were on the losing side of the US revolution). My dad did some digging around and found the old deeds. It is quite clear that the farm is now covered by a good chunk of urban Boston. Should I be able to claim it back?

[DarkCloud]

Reply to Keygen:

Is this relative to my answer to DarkCloud?

Yes, Not completely, but the last line is very relevant.
Did I mentioned that Palestinians don't have the write to live there as well?

Of cource both have the right to live there. My argument was that Hebrews too have the right to live there and have their own independed state.
[/quote]
The Hebrews, yes, an independent state- but it should have representation from both sides.
Even if you think that it "shouldnt" then you would have to agree that it certainly would help lower the violence in the region, and I am willing to sacrafice right for peace.
Peace is more important than Political Correctness.
Friendship is more important than being right.
This is a hard thing for me to say, but I'll say it.

History doesn't matter? What ingorance
So if I come to your house and kick you out you don't have the right to come back and kick me out? Geez, I hope you have a better house than I have 'cause I am comming to kick you out

Yes, but how far are you willing to go back.
History is my hobby.
I love history.
But I put it in its place.
History misdone can turn into a problem such as Echinda describes.
Everyone should live together AS THEY ARE.
People should do what they can and not be weak jerks and claim that they have "rights" to own land in certain areas because some grandparent 1000 years ago owned a hovel on the spot.
All that matters in regards to land claims is the present.

OK, things are more complicated than that but you can get an idea that because of historical reasons both Hebrews and Palestinians have the right to live there while if the Germans would claim the area would be great unjustice indeed.

No. If Germany conquered the land- it would be, by rights theres.
And yes, the Palestinians and Israelis would have full rights to uprise if they were not represented in the governing of their provinces.
Both sides are at fault.

but retaining nationalities in a degree is not something to easily abandon, not even for me.

It may not be easy, but it should be done- for if it is done then it would be excessively easier to live together without someone hating someone, then reading up on how he is a Slav, then telling everyone how evil the Slavically decended peoples are, then getting them to gang up on him and his family
and restarting the cycle of violence.

After the colapse of the Ottoman empire Hebrews started returning to their old homelands. The migration got more intence during 30s and 40s. Palestinians started feeling threaten by the increasing number of Hebrews in the area. I can understand them but I do understand the right of the Hebrews returning home. Palestinians started harrasing the "newcommers". Hebrews fought back

"Returning to their homeland"
Why cant they make a real homeland!
Why do they have to return to the homeland of their Grandparents!
This is one thing that I DO respect the americans for.
For the most part, Americans respect no part of their "country" and move on to where jobs are, and stay away from "traditional sections"

If the Hebrews who "returned" had themselves been displaced- I support them.
If this is not so- then they had no right to return.
Of course after the war, they established their right, but in the beginning they had no right.

And Yes, Might and Conquest do make right.

---
But all the people who are there should treat and govern each other fairly and equally.

If there were no Nationalities or REligions, there would be no problem... hmm...

[chequita guevara]

If we all have to go back where we came from, it's gonna get might crowded in Natal, South Africa.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
Don't you think, just maybe, that since there are only three people in the world (?) who you feel can "combat" (nice word choice) palestinian propaganda that maybe your view is a little stilted?

No, I merely point out that the level of english and arguement of most representatives of our Foreign Ministry is quite low.

There are more than enough people sharing my view, sadly, most aren't invited on international networks.

It's nice to see however, that a person who lives so far away and knows, oh, perhaps 30% of what's going on here, thinks that it is my view that is wrong.

OK maybe its an international conspiracy set up by the ancient order of the illumanti, CNN, BBC, and various shadow goverments, or maybe, just maybe, you've deluded yourself. I'm going to let you decide, but I'll let you in on a secret -- there's one rational answer, and there's one irrational answer.

The problem is that one side lies his shoes off, and another side says the truth, however people far away can't tell the difference and think that the truth is inbetween.

I already showed examples of palestinians lying, when Arafat claimed Israelis use palestinian children's corpses in their hospoitals, when his newspapers accuse Jews of working according to the plans of the Elders of Zion, and school books which depict Jews as the children of Satan and enemies of Islam.

Visit the sites I presented in a previous post, and maybe your vision will be clearer.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What historical connection? You mean with the Jews that were "tranferred" away from Palestine by the Romans two millennia ago? That's very thin don't you think?

No, I don't think so.

The link is undeniable, given how the Bible, the Jewish prayers and literature and songs all refer to Israel and Zion (=Jerusalem).

This is just as undeniable as the Muslim's link to Mecca and Medina.

So who lived in the area before then? Who fought with the crusaders?

Are you sure it was Jews who fought the crusaders? Seems like there were other peoples in the area for a long time.

Are you claiming that Saladin was Palestinian ?

There were very little people who actually lived in Palestine itself.

And even they, never saw themselves as palestinians, but rather a part of the bigger Muslim nation.

[chequita guevara]

Yeah, but Siro, even if Arafat is lying his *ss off about such things, we don't hear it in our news, so it doesn't matter. On the other hand, we don't get to see the brutality inflicted upon Palestinians, either. Perception is taken for reality, and what we percieve in our news is that the Israelis are beset by savages. Fortunately, some of us go beyond the bourgeois American media.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
You´re full of ****, Siro. That´s just zionist justification of a illegal occupation of Palestine territory.

It is you who are full of sh!t.

The only ****ing reason we started 1967 was because the ****ing arabs were employing terrorist tactics against us.

And again you should notice there was never a palestine.

Great Palestine is a name for a region which includes also some parts of Lebanon and Syria and Jordan, and was given by the roman empire.

No nation has ever seen itself "Palestinian" until the 20th century.

Until the 60s, the arabs living here considered themselves either Syrians or just "Arabs".

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yeah, but Siro, even if Arafat is lying his *ss off about such things, we don't hear it in our news, so it doesn't matter.

No, it does matter.

It's only a proof of how biased towards faked even-hand policy your TV networks are.

I've seen Arafat's interview on Al-Jazira myself, were he showed pictures of decapitated children, not clear who or where from, and claimed that this proves that Israelis are using limbs and organs of Palestinian children, in their hospitals, for their own Jewish children.

On the other hand, we don't get to see the brutality inflicted upon Palestinians, either.

Sure you do.

There's hardly a thing that relates to the Palestinian suffering that you don't see on TV.

Infact, BBC often portrays captured or failed terrorists as "innocent victims". I've seen a palestinian march in memory of two terrorists who failed and exploded without injuring anyone, being described as "more aggravation caused by Israel".

Bad Israelsi we are. We don't explode when when being bombed.

Perception is taken for reality, and what we percieve in our news is that the Israelis are beset by savages. Fortunately, some of us go beyond the bourgeois American media.

Nice.

Say, if you're against this evil bourgeois society, why do you keep living in it and taking advantage of it?

Move to an island, and start your own society.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by laurentius

Gee what a clever response answering my points so well.

Just like you always do.