Bisexuals

[Solly]

PH,

I've said over and over in these thread that I don't think all people who claim to be bisexuals are doing it to be trendy or fit in with their clique. I don't believe Zac is. I don't believe you have to start making implications like that. But I wonder if you do invite him here whether he'll be able to tell you about people who have claimed to be bisexual for the attention...

I think you have just exposed the most wide, gaping hole in your argument. Three people? We are talking about bisexuality, not menage-a-trois. Jesus, read up Stew, talk to people, get out there in the real world. It's really not what you think it is.

If it's just two people then isn't it gay/lesbian or straight relationships? If not, then by definition bisexuality implies promiscuity.

Oh I don't know...see my new thread.

[MikeH]

Maybe he's just pretending to be a right wing, homophobic, racist, snob because he thinks it makes him look cool?

[MikeH]

If it's just two people then isn't it gay/lesbian or straight relationships? If not, then by definition bisexuality implies promiscuity.

No. Read any of the several accurate descriptions of what bisexuality is in this thread.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Boddington's
PH,

I've said over and over in these thread that I don't think all people who claim to be bisexuals are doing it to be trendy or fit in with their clique. I don't believe Zac is. I don't believe you have to start making implications like that. But I wonder if you do invite him here whether he'll be able to tell you about people who have claimed to be bisexual for the attention...

Why would Zac need to do it, ask yourself that. How much have you actually talked to Zac about it? Do you know how he feels about the situation? I didn't think so.

If it's just two people then isn't it gay/lesbian or straight relationships? If not, then by definition bisexuality implies promiscuity.

Oh I don't know...see my new thread.

Not really, if they are equally content with either sex, it depends on who they meet, and who turns out to be Mr/Miss Right. It's as simple as that.

Mike, that is the impression I get quite a lot of the time. Iain is on the right hand side on the political spectrum, and although we disagree on political standpoint, there isn't any conflict. Besides Iain is more liberal in his outlook.

[MikeH]

That's the only reason I keep responding to him. I'm trying to work that out. People don't just turn into complete fascists overnight. It wouldn't be the first time Stew's pretended to believe something just to get a reaction but what he's portraying here is so nasty I can't see why he'd want to be perceived like that.

I am slowly working on Iain, he could choose Lib Dem's for his personal freedom reasons or Conservatives for economic ones we need to persuade him that the personal freedom points are more important.

[Provost Harrison]

Iain will be a tough nut to crack. Stew seems to be just doing it for the kicks. It is just a phase. But the thing is, he should be too old for 'phases'. I'm sure he does it to antagonise me at times also.

[MrFun]

Argument Fallacies on Sexual Orientation

People like Boddington, who do not know how to participate in intelligent arguments about sexual orientation and/or homosexuals/bisexauls, use pedophilia and sex with animals through one of the two argument fallacies.

Strawman argument: Boddington or others imply that homosexuals and bisexuals argue for acceptance of pedophilia and sex with animals, when we really are not arguing at all for that. They impose a fake argument on us that we do not support.

Slippery Slope argument: Boddington or others claim that if society accepts homosexual and bisexual behavior as legitimate, then that means we HAVE to accept pedophilia behavior, and sex with animals. There is no evidence to provide for the claim that this will definitely happen just because something else happens first.

Pedophilia and sex with animals are not related to human sexual orientation.

Again, let me reiterate. Pedophilia involves manipulating children into having sex for pleasure.

Sex with animals does not involve any meaningful relationship based on intimacy between the animal and the human.

Sex between two consenting, competent adults -- whether they're heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual, is legitimate.

[-=Vagrant=-]

"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken."
David Hume 1711-1776

I'm still amazed at those comments posted here by Bod and Faided Glory. How can people even use comments that are so clearly logically wrong? I'm partisipating in a same argument in a Finnish forum; same comments come from two different people. I doubt they are FG and Bod?
Some are on an Eternal Crusade against the evil forces of Logic and Critical Thinking! Luckily the majority have some brains.
Feel free to insult me, (you know who)

[*End Is Forever*]

For those who are interested...

Unite to Stop the BNP National Rally

Saturday 23rd March, 2.30pm Pennine Way Hotel, Manchester Street Oldham

Speakers include: Michael Meacher MP, Phil Woolas MP, Arlene McCarthy
MEP, Owain James, President of NUS, Lee Jasper,
Senior Advisor to the Mayor of London on Equalities, Angela Mason,
Stonewall, Revd Arlene Trotman, Churches Commission for
Racial Justice, Earl Barratt, former Oldham Athletic footballer, Julie
Hesmondhalgh (Hayley from Coronation St) plus faith group
representatives, trade unionists and others.

Thought this might be the appropriate place...

[MrFun]

Let's get back to the thread's original topic. And that was, bisexuality.

What if bisexuality is proven to be the fundamental basis of each person's sexual orientation identity? In other words, that we're all bisexual but we lean a lot towards either heterosexuality or homosexuality??

Maybe bisexuality could be proven to be not as a third sexual orientation, as it is usually seen today, but as a basis from which a person becomes predominantly heterosexual or homosexual.

That means each person is fundamentally bisexual, but predominantly heterosexual or homosexual.

[connorkimbro]

Don't forget that some of. . . err. . . some people are right smack dab in the middle. (or very close to the middle)

And there's nothing preventing a bisexual person from being monogamous, Bod. Just like, once you're with a girl, you're still ATTRACTED to other girls. That doesn't mean you sleep with every girl you see. Just like two guys together, if they're together, it doesn't mean they're not attracted to other guys as well. Just because they are, or just because YOU are doesn't mean anyone has a tendancy to be promiscuous at all. If a bisexual person is with someone, they'll be attracted to others, but NOTHING indicates that leads to increased promiscuity.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by faded glory
Someone said the homosexuality/Bisexuality was natural.

And I said to prove it. Its not mine to prove it isnt. They said it. They didnt...

I'm going to post another reprint of what I consider to be the greatest post ever made on Apolyton. Mindseye, I really must buy you a drink some day, as I've used this post on every "Is homosexuality/bisexuality natural?" debate I've been in since you posted it. Nice one, Tiger.

"In several recent threads I've cited the abundance of homosexual behavior in the animal world, and have promised a thread with plenty of examples. My source is the wonderful book Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemihl, PhD (St. Martins Press, 1999).

The author, a biologist and researcher, (and incidentally a married heterosexual with children), has compiled a massive compendium of documented observations of homosexual behavior in animals, concentrating on mammals. The book is thoroughly documented, and encyclopedic in nature - the section detailing behavior by species is about 400 pages long. Plenty of fascinating photos and drawings are included in this terrific book.
The author also discusses the difficulties and obstacles he encountered, and biologists' traditional aversion to the topic. Typically, same-gender sexual activity has been disregarded, or written off as "greetings" or domineering activity to establish social pecking order, even when the behavior is clearly welcomed or even initiated by the less dominant individual.

Anyway , there's enough subject matter here for several topics, so let's get down to examples! I will be paraphrasing and summarizing to an extreme degree, the book provides vast amounts of data. All quotes are from the book. I've tried to select examples that give an idea of the variety of behaviors and animals involved. Keep in mind that this long list represents a fraction of the animals discussed in the book.

The point of this posting is to debunk the notion that homosexual sex is "unnatural" or "contrary to nature", and to ask why should we expect humans to be so different?
Ming, apologies in advance, I till try to keep this from being overly explicit, although that may not be easy given the subject matter!
- mindseye
--------------------------------------------------
Giraffes - Males have a graceful and erotic ritual they only perform with other males, usually as a prelude to sex. It starts out with an intertwining of necks, and usually ends with intercourse.

Bottlenose Dophins - both males and females engage in affectionate and sexual activities with members of their own gender.This includes nuzzling, touching, stroking each other's geneitalia with fins or beaks, and intercourse between males. Activity is sometimes performed in groups. "The lives of male bottlenose dolphins are charcterized by extensive bisexuality combined with periods of exclusive homosexuality." Males sometimes form life-long pair bonds with other similar-aged males, becoming constant companions - the relationship usually includes sex. Male Bottlenose Dolphins ocassionally have sex with male Spotted Dolphins as well.

Bonobo (or Pygmy) Chimpanzees - Bonobos live in mixed-sex mixed-age communities of 60 or more chimps. Females are generally dominant to males. "Bonobos have one of the most varied and extensive repertoires of homosexual practices found in any animal." Females engage in a kind of genital-to-genital stimulation that is not found in any other speices, usually performed in a face-to-face embrace. "As shown by their facial expressions, vocalizations, and genital engorgement, females experience intense pleasure - and probably orgasm - during homosexual interactions. Partners gaze intensely into each other's eyes and maintain eye contact throughout the interaction." Both males and females engage in manual stimulation, oral sex, and intercourse in a wide variety of positions. About half of all sexual activity is homosexual. "Bonobos have developed an extraordinary system of gestural communication that is used specifically for sex. A 'lexicon' of about a dozen hand and arm gestures - each with a specific meaning - is utilized by Bonobos to initiate sexual activity and negotiate various body positions with a partner (of the same or opposite sex)." The gestures have meanings such as "turn your body around", "spread your legs" "stand up", and raise the interesting proposition that human language evolved from similar beginnings...!

Black Swans - Black swans usually form mated pairs, with about 5% - 6% of males forming stable, long-lasting homosexual relationships, often many years in duration. These males engage in courtship behavior and sexual activity together. Male pairs raise chicks, either by inviting a female to mate and lay eggs in their nest (and then chasing her away), or by taking over a heterosexual couple's nest. Male pairs are usually more successful parents than hetero pairs because their combined strength often provides them with the best nesting areas,and also because they share incubation duties more equally. Approxiamtely 80% of male homosexual swans are successful at raising chicks compared to about 30% success rate among "straight" pairs.

Killer Whales - Orcas live in pods centered on a dominant female. During summer and fall, when pods come together to feast on salmon runs, "males of all ages often spend the afternoons in sessions of courtship, affectionate and sexual behaviors with each other." Typically, they leave their pod and temporarily join another individual male, or sometimes gather in a small group. They roll around each other, splashing, touching, nudging, and engaging in "oral" (beak-genital) stimulation, usually trading positions. Sometimes they have special partners they interact with year after year.

Manatees - Male manatees of all ages regularly engage in intense homosexual activities involving mutual masturbation, kissing, and mutual oral stimulation ("sixty-nining"). These couplings are very different from heterosxual ones, and usually last much longer per session. Sometimes a group of males will have sex together for hours.

Marmots - Females engage in same-sex mounting, usually after affectionate behavior such as nuzzling or nibbling. Female-female sexual activity is quite common among marmots, and may in fact outnumber female-male mounting.

Walruses - "In the shallow waters off the coast of the summer haul-out grounds, male walruses engage in homosexual courtship, sexual and affectionate activities. Pairs of males - sometimes as many as 50 animals at a time (...) rub their bodies against one another, clasp and embrace each other with their front flippers, touch noses, and loll together." Specal courtship "songs" are vocalized. Sexual activity involves mutal stimulation using flippers, mounting, and intercourse.

Deer - Most male and female deer occasionally engage in same-gender mounting, usually after ritualized "foreplay".

Bighorn Sheep - Male Bighorn sheep are incredibly queer. Males usually live in male-only groups "where same-sex courtship and sexual activity occur among all rams". Males seem to be unable to get enough of each other, both giving and receiving oral sex and intercourse. In fact, females sometimes try to pass themselves off as young males in an attempt to get some action!

Musk Ox - Something like 10% of all adult sexual activity (male and female) is with the same gender.

American Bison - Among males, "homosexual mounting is more common the heterosexual mounting (...) since each female rarely mates with a male more than once a year, while each male may engage in same-sex mounting many times a day." Younger male bison are especially likely to engage in same-sex mounting. Often it is initiated by the "mountee", who will back into another male with legs spread and tail aside in invitation. Homosexual intercourse usually lasts twice as long as hetersexual, sometimes it is reciprocal. Groups of young males (4 or 5) will take turns mounting each other or the same individual. Among African Bison, female mounting also occurs.

Parrots - Male and female homosexual bonds are common, consisting of 33% to as much as 50% of pairings depending on species. Shared activities include sitting side-by-side, preening, nuzzling, feeding and mounting each other. Females build nests and incubate eggs together, male couples do not build nests. Parrots that form same-sex couples are usually exclusively homosexual.

Antelopes - Both males and females of all age groups sometimes engage in homosexual mounting. As with many herd animals, most males (2/3 to 3/4 of male antelopes) never mate with a female, and many of these males have homosexual sex lives. Even among males and females who mate heterosexually, about 10% of activity is homosexual.

Chimpanzees - Male and female chimps engage in a wide variety of homosexual sex including "sixty-nining"and intercourse, occasionally even messing with other species of monkeys. The frequency of same-gender sex varies quite a bit between individuals, from as little as negligible to exclusively homosexual. Much or most chimpanzee sexual activity is not geared towards procreation. In fact, females sometimes engage in a type of contraception - by simulating nursing through manual stimulation of their nipples, females can induce a contraceptive state to prevent pregnancy, sometimes doing so for years.

Elephants - Males commonly engage in homosexual mounting and other kinds of same-sex activity such as play fighting and trunk-genital stimulation. Female mutual masturbation has been observed in captivity, but has not yet been viewed in the wild. While there are no long-lasting heterosexual bonds among elephants, about 18% of males form "companionships" with other males, remaining constantly in each others company and engaging solely in homosexual sex.

Flamingos - Approximately 5% of flamingos (both male and female) form same-sex couples, remaining together sometimes from one breeding season to the next. Most pairings are monogamous, and couples spend most of their time with each other, including sleeping and sexual activity. Both male and female homosexual couples may engage in parenting (males gain eggs by taking over a nest). Males in parenting homosexual pairs are able to lactate.

Lions - Most lions appear to be bisexual, although some display a preference for one or the other gender. Female lions initiate homosexual activty by pursuing and then crawling under another female to encourage her to mount. Sometimes they take turns mounting each other, and while doing so exhibit behaviors associated with heterosexual activity (gentle neck biting, growling, pelvic thrusts). Males exhibit a great deal of affectionate behavior, including mutual head-rubbing (often accompanied by a low moaning), sliding or rubbing against each other, presenting hind quarters, or rolling on their back while displaying an erection. This can lead to intense caressing and eventual mounting. Sometimes three males engage in this activity, mounting each other in turn.

Grizzly Bears - Although grizzlies are typically solitary animals, sometimes females bond with each other and raise their young together as a family unit. These females spend most of their time with each other, and will even move their den in order to hibernate closer to their companion. The cubs regard both females as parents. Sexual activity between such paired females has not yet been observed.

Kangaroos - Pair-bonding sometimes develops between female Eastern Gray Kangaroos. Partners lick, nibble, and caress each other, using their paws to rake the fur on each others head and neck. These females also sometimes court and mount each other, although such female-female sexual activity can occur among non-bonded kangaroos as well. Interestingly, heterosexual pair-bonds are not found in this species. Among Red-necked Wallabies, females frequently mount each otherm, using a slightly different position than that used by males. Males occasionally will mount each other, usually during play-fighting. They also engage in affectionate activites such as mutual grooming, licking , touching, and embracing during these sessions.

Canadian Geese - Geese sometimes form partnerships that may last many years. Some of these pairings are homosexual (both male and female). Among Canadaian geese up to 12% of pairs may be homosexual. Lesbian couples rear families together.

Cheetahs - Males and females occasionally engage in same-sex mounting. Males often live in permanent partnerships of 2 or 3 cheetahs who become closely bonded with each other, probably for life, spending over 90% of their time in each other's company. Male pair-mates frequently groom each other, defend each other, and engage in sexual activity together. On rare occasions male pairs have been observed taking care of lost cubs (non-paired males never engage in child-rearing)."

[-=Vagrant=-]

Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny


I'm going to post another reprint of what I consider to be the greatest post ever made on Apolyton. Mindseye, I really must buy you a drink some day, as I've used this post on every "Is homosexuality/bisexuality natural?" debate I've been in since you posted it. Nice one, Tiger.

I guess Bodd will just say " that one book doesn't prove anything"
Or will he say "look's like I learned something today"

[Guynemer]

Spinky, just when I think you could not possibly get any more obnoxious, you continue to surprise me.

I have an honest question, something I've wanted to ask various people for a long time. Faded, feel free to answer yourself. What is it like to go through life as an emotionally-stunted, ignorant, inane, snot-nosed little punk? Are you happy? Sad? Threatened? I'm just really curious.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Homosexuality and other non breeding strategies (Helper: aunts, uncles, no longer brreding grandparents) makes good sense among social creatures, dominent in there ecosystem (no predetors), and facing overpopulation or resouce shortages. Some adults give up or reduce dreeding but continue to be productive for the society. It makes sense and is often seen among other species, even when there are not proounced shortages. Given the burgening overpopulation of humans, increasing homoseuality (spread out and not concetrated in familes of gene lines) appear to be an evolutionary advantage.