The Saudi Peace initiative - Yes or No

[BlackStone]

Sirotnikov - Is there another Palestinian that, from an Israeli perspective, could build a peace? And another thing are things so desparate their that people are no longer even dreaming of alternatives, what has happenned to the left?

I did read somewhere that even after Sharon got in there was progress being made on how best to push the process forward. Have you heard anything like that over there.


Lonestar - You do have to take into account that there is no army in the region trained or equiped to the same level, 220 odd nucleur weapons, and being supported by the only superpower in the world today. That goes a long way to making up for an 8mile thin bit.


Grrr - I`m not such a newbie as my settler status may suggest. But Banana point taken onboard - thanks for the input (you freak
)

[BlackStone]

Sirotnikov - Another question (you must be delighted), how do you feel, and others, about Sharon. I am not meaning to be confrontational but i always hear alot said against Arafat, but what about sharon with all of the trouble in Lebanon and those early massacres that are attributed to him. I have heard him called (by someone in our foreign office) a cancer of the middle east, and thats one of the nicer comments. I just want to know how with his history he is seen over there. Is it a case of the **** has hit the fan and we need someone never mind about his past?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Sirotnikov - Is there another Palestinian that, from an Israeli perspective, could build a peace? And another thing are things so desparate their that people are no longer even dreaming of alternatives, what has happenned to the left?

Israeli military and news comentators mark a few peacfull ones, esp. Muhamad Dahlan and Gibril Rajub.

Both local leaders of palestinian security forces.

I don't think peace can be reached ever. I lost hope for that. Sorry.

I did read somewhere that even after Sharon got in there was progress being made on how best to push the process forward. Have you heard anything like that over there.

Yes I have.

Israel did talk and talk alot.

Therefore the palestinian claims that Terror will be stopped once negociations start is ludicrous, since we spent Sept. 2000 to February 2001 negociating... and were under constant fire.

Lonestar - You do have to take into account that there is no army in the region trained or equiped to the same level,

Egypt.

better and more equipment. And get trained by americans now.


Btw, America recently ceased support for Egypt after Israeli Intelligence showed them evidence that the Egyptian army is using Israel as it's imaginary enemy in combat training.

220 odd nucleur weapons,

Oh, now that's just rumors

and being supported by the only superpower in the world today

YOu know of our relations with china?


j/k

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Sirotnikov - Another question (you must be delighted),

how do you feel, and others, about Sharon. I am not meaning to be confrontational but i always hear alot said against Arafat, but what about sharon with all of the trouble in Lebanon and those early massacres that are attributed to him. I have heard him called (by someone in our foreign office) a cancer of the middle east, and thats one of the nicer comments. I just want to know how with his history he is seen over there. Is it a case of the **** has hit the fan and we need someone never mind about his past?

Well ok.

I used to think that "**** hit the fant and we need someone who can kickass",

But I dug more into books and old articles.

Ariel Sharon suggested in 1974 (!) to talk peace and compromise with the pals. He made stand that in an article he published.

Ain't as evil as you were lead to think.

As far as sabra and shatilla go, as long as he was cleared by the very independant and liberal high court, I think he really was not directly responsible.

I mean, blaming him is the same as blaming US presidents for specific massacares in Vietnam.

Sure, you can blame them that they started the war, but they can't control every commander on the ground.

I do however acknowledge Israel was lax to stop it. What the high command suspected is that Eli Hubaika (direct commander of the christian phalanges who comitted the atrocity, assassinated recently by a lebanese front) will kill terrorists and thier friends. He was officially meant to take control of the camps and clean them of terrorists or round them up or something.

What they didn't plan, is that women and children will be slaughtered by that crazy lebanese fook.

All lower levels who had the ability to stop the massacare in action got nice jail times IIRC.

All high command, including generals and Sharon (minister of security) were found indirectly responsible (legal culpability) and also guilty of lax assessment of facts.


An American newspaper once claimed that the secret close of the trial conclusion said that Sharon was directly responsible - completely aware and perhaps even encouraging the act.

Sharon took them to court, they read the secret close, and admitted they were wrong.


That's what I know.

[Az]

/me steps in...

Hey cool ! now we have 3 ME threads ! (including cypro-turk one)

Siro, cavalier attitudes towards Arabs (like Eli seems to have) will only makes things worse

yes , because , as seen in history , the region was usually guided by peaceful coexistance. I say, that if one has to face them ( or should I say 'you' ) ,in either war or peace , one has not to be afraid of them . I haven't seen good examples of compromise bringing in a better situation to the compromising side, in the middle east , at least.
would you please give me these examples?

Sirotnikov - Is there another Palestinian that, from an Israeli perspective, could build a peace? And another thing are things so desparate their that people are no longer even dreaming of alternatives, what has happenned to the left?

The 'left' , which in Israel represents the upper-middle classes , is actually a bunch of Liberal Democrats. So is the 'right'. The social issue went through the drain a long time ago around here. The 'left' represents the people that are apparently not hungry enough for their sons to go to the army. Taking the way of peace is good , of course, but not for any price. I've seen them. Those stupid upper class kids that are afraid to go to the ****ing army ,because they're scared , and call themselves pacifists. I know their cowardly spirit. I've talked to some of them. :
anyhow , the 'left' is on a brink of a collapse. With the utter failure of camp david , and the Oslo peace accords , they seem to be split. the ones in the government are the one that apparently understood their failure . ( though, they cannot admit it, of course.) the other ones , in the opposition, seem to go even more extreme, blaming th government in everything. Even the previous governmnet in which they took part.


My opinion on Sharon:

He is a skilled tactitian , a mediocre strategist. He decieved Begin's government. But I am sure he did that in the interests of the country , however wrong it was. Sabra and Shatila were not masterminded by him. Neither they were performed by the IDF. So it was not neither his direct responsibility , nor his evil scheme. He did however have ministerial responsibilty. The case was considered by the Or commission. The decision was to never let him serve as Minister of Defence again, due to the fact that he failed in his duty , to some extent, despite the fact the war WAS won, Syria was crushed, and the PLO left the building on a big boat.

[Sirotnikov]

Siro, cavalier attitudes towards Arabs (like Eli seems to have) will only makes things worse.

Things will get worse.
It's only a matter of time.

I really like this Saudi plan, but Israel will never back it... and then good propaganda tool

Hell, it can be our 'Camp David' propaganda tool.

No, camp david was worked out to details and was extremely close to palestinian demands.


Saudi peace initiative is ambiguous, general, unillateral and completely inconsiderative of Israeli requests.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by BlackStone

Lonestar - You do have to take into account that there is no army in the region trained or equiped to the same level, 220 odd nucleur weapons, and being supported by the only superpower in the world today. That goes a long way to making up for an 8mile thin bit.

E....oh, I see Siro beat me to it.

Egypt could smack Israel around like a redheaded stepchild. While I don't doubt that ultimately Israel would win, they sure as hell would know they were in a fight.

For sheer numbers of Tanks, Syria could be problematic. The also have a disproportiante amount of SCUD launchers to missiles (1:3 instead of 1:5) indicating their war plans probaly involve launch a thousand odd SCUDs at once.

All this while fighing the Palestinian Intifada? I don't think the Intifada will stop on account of this. And any Isareli PM who shrinks their country to 8 mile in width would get lynched from the nearest tree.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

In the same way, a big chunck of the 700,000 Arabs that left pre-1948 left on their own, because of fear of hostilities.

Bull****! That´s zionist propaganda, they didn´t really have a choice.

"In the period from 1917 to 1949, Israel had occupied 78% of the land of Palestine and evicted or caused to flee more than 750,000 Palestinian refugees to Gaza Strip , West Bank and other Arab countries like Syria , Lebanon, Jordan and others.. It is the plight of the Palestinian refugees, who now number 1.5 millions, and the fate of the Palestinians, who now number 2.5 millions, as a people, which have remained the most pressing problems.

The following are the main reasons of this refugee crisis

1. The British mandate

The mandate charter stated, “the British mandate government should encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency, the mobilization of Jews on state - owned lands throughout Palestine”. Accordingly, the British High Commissioner in Palestine, Mr. Herbert Samo’yel, issued the transfer of property law along with a number of annexes. By this law, the High Commissioner issued a decree on July 1,1920 confiscating 3390 square dunums at Karm Abu Hussein area in Jerusalem. In August 1924, the British mandate government confiscated large areas of Palestinian land, and it has been given to Jewish Agency. The British mandate government donated to the Jewish Potach Company 75,000 dunums and to the jewish Electric company 18.000 dunums free of charge to build up their Jewish projects. The British High Commissioners confiscate more Palestinian land for the construction of new roads for jewish settlements. Palestinian villages were completely ignored and the roads leading to these villages were themselves confiscated under various British codes and regulations.

2 . The Partition Plan

The 1947 resolution on the partition of Palestine came only to complement the unjust laws and military orders enacted by the British mandate government. The partition of Palestine was unfair and illegal because it failed to consult the majority of the Palestinians estimated at that time at 90% of the total population of Palestine. The resolution lacked justice and equality because it gave the Jewish minority about 56% of the land, most of which was located at the fertile coastal areas and 43% to the Palestinian majority, land lying in rugged mountainous areas.

As from 29th November 1947, a state of tension had been created between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. The British Government announced its plans to withdraw from Palestine on 15th May 1948.

The State of Israel had been all but born and it now only remained for the Zionists to make sure that when it came into official being, on 15th May 1948, it should be as Chaim Weizmann, Israel's first President, promised in 1921 that "Palestine will be as Jewish as England is English."

3. The economical situation

Since 1920, the British mandate government has put Palestine in a difficult economic, administrative, and political situation, facilitating the establishment of a Jewish state and the displacement of Palestinians to seek jobs in the adjusting Arab countries .

4 . The zionist massacres

In order to push the unarmed defenseless Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes. Jewish terrorist groups such as Irgun Zwei Leumi were brought in when other methods failed. On 9th April 1948, the Irgun Zwei Leumi led by Menachem Beigin, a former Israeli Cabinet Minister and former leader of the Opposition in the Israeli Parliament, attacked the small Arab village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem. An account of this barbaric massacre was given by Jacques de Reynier, the Chief Delegate of the International Red Cross , who was able to reach the village and witness the aftermath of the massacre: "Three hundred persons" he said, "were massacred ... without any military reason or provocation of any kind; old men women, children, newly-born were savagely murdered with grenades and knives by Jewish troops of the Irgun, entirely under the control of their chiefs."

The objective behind the Deir Yassin massacre was to terrify the Arab civilian population, and force them to flee to secure for the Zionists the land without the people. The plan succeeded and they fled in terror, to save their lives. Before May 15th, 1948, while the British Government was still responsible, the Jews had occupied many purely Arab cities like Jaffa and Acre and scores of villages that were in the territory assigned by the U.N. Resolution for the Arab State and evicted more than 300,000 inhabitants from their homes. In an attempt to stem this tide, the neighboring Arab states sent their armies on 15th May 1948 into Palestine. On 15th July 1948 the U.N. imposed a final truce between Israel and the Arabs, by which time Israel had occupied an even larger part of the territory allotted to the Arab State in Palestine.

5. Israeli Army

In view of the Israeli army hostilities which continued after the 1948 war, more Palestinians were forced to move to the Gaza Strip.

Refugee issue in the United Nations

The U.N. Mediator in Palestine, Count Bernadotte, in his report submitted to the General Assembly on 16th September 1948, stated: "It is, however, undeniable that no settlement can be just and complete if recognition is not accorded to the right of the Arab refugee to return to the home from which he has been dislodged by the hazards and strategy of the armed conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. It would be an offence against the principle of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine and indeed offer the threat of permanent replacement of the Arab refugees who have been rooted in the land for centuries." This statement cost Count Bernadotte dearly. On the next day he and his French assistant were assassinated in the Israeli sector of Jerusalem by Jewish terrorists.

On 11th December 1948 the General Assembly discussed Bernadotte's report and resolved: "that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbour should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date." This resolution has been annually re-affirmed by the U.N. ever since, but Israel continues to defy the U.N. and prevent the return of the refugees to their homes.

The Zionist responsibility

It is of interest to note here that Zionist propagandists initiated, in an attempt to shirk their responsibility towards the refugees, a campaign stating that the refugees left their homes of their own free will, obeying orders broadcast to them by their Arab leaders. Erskine Childers, an Irish Journalist and author and at was the President of the Republic of Ireland from 1973 to 1974, devoted months to look into this claim and found it baseless. He examined the American and British monitoring records of all Middle East broadcasts throughout 1948 and reported: "There was not a single order or appeal or suggestion about evacuation from any Arab radio inside or outside Palestine in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

Nathan Chofshi, a Jewish writer who emigrated from Russia to Palestine. He stated: "If Rabbi Kaplan really wanted to know what happened, we old settlers in Palestine who witnessed the flight could tell him how and in what manner we, Jews, forced the Arabs to leave their cities and villages …. Here was a people who lived on its own land for 1300 years. We came and turned the native Arabs into tragic refugees. And we still dare to slander and malign them, to besmirch their name. Instead of being ashamed of what we did and of trying to undo some of the evil we committed by helping these unfortunate refugees, we justify our terrible acts and even attempt to glorify them."

Land Acquisition Law

Not only did the Israelis refuse to allow the return of the refugees to their homes, but they consummated the tragedy by seizing all their property in one of the greatest acts of plunder in modern history. The confiscation of Arab land was not confined to the holdings of the refugees but extended to the 200,000 Palestinians, who remained in their homes in 1948, by a series of extraordinary laws and regulations of legalized robbery. These included "The Land Acquisition Law," "The Abandoned Areas Ordinance, 1949," "The Absentee Property Regulations, 1948" and others. The injustices, to which the Arabs in Israel were subjected, went far beyond the expropriation of their farms and property, and included flagrant infringement upon their basic human rights and civil liberties."

[Eli]

Originally posted by Lonestar
All this while fighing the Palestinian Intifada? I don't think the Intifada will stop on account of this. And any Isareli PM who shrinks their country to 8 mile in width would get lynched from the nearest tree.

I dont think that in case of a war we will bother with all this intifada crap like sending whole divisions into a city and minimizing civilian casualties. In case of war, to keep them quiet we will just station some tanks around their cities who will shoot on everything that moves. No one will care about it during a war.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


Bull****! That´s zionist propaganda, they didn´t really have a choice.

Oh good, for a moment I was afraid it was Masonic Propaganda.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Lonestar



Oh good, for a moment I was afraid it was Masonic Propaganda.

It´s the same, really. They´re all in kahootz (sp?)

[Saint Marcus]

we can also sell israel to the highest bidder.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
we can also sell israel to the highest bidder.

I don't think so. Last time we accepted a Dutch economic idea, we were up to our asses in tulips.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, camp david was worked out to details and was extremely close to palestinian demands.

Close, but no cigar. One of the provisions was for 95% of the West Bank. What was not included was the area of the settlements ringing Jerusalem. If Arafat accepted that, effectively, Jerusalem would forever be closed off from Palestine.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
1. The British mandate

The mandate charter stated, “the British mandate government should encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency, the mobilization of Jews on state - owned lands throughout Palestine”. Accordingly, the British High Commissioner in Palestine, Mr. Herbert Samo’yel, issued the transfer of property law along with a number of annexes. By this law, the High Commissioner issued a decree on July 1,1920 confiscating 3390 square dunums at Karm Abu Hussein area in Jerusalem. In August 1924, the British mandate government confiscated large areas of Palestinian land, and it has been given to Jewish Agency. The British mandate government donated to the Jewish Potach Company 75,000 dunums and to the jewish Electric company 18.000 dunums free of charge to build up their Jewish projects. The British High Commissioners confiscate more Palestinian land for the construction of new roads for jewish settlements. Palestinian villages were completely ignored and the roads leading to these villages were themselves confiscated under various British codes and regulations.

The British did what they wanted depending on when things suited them and when they didn't. The claim that "Palestinian land was seized for the construction of Jewish settlements" seems very dubious to me, it's probably based on the fact that the British took over Ottoman government land. And it should be noted that the British also forced a lot of Jews to leave parts of Jerusalem in the hopes of keeping down Arab rioting.

The 1947 resolution on the partition of Palestine came only to complement the unjust laws and military orders enacted by the British mandate government. The partition of Palestine was unfair and illegal because it failed to consult the majority of the Palestinians estimated at that time at 90% of the total population of Palestine. The resolution lacked justice and equality because it gave the Jewish minority about 56% of the land, most of which was located at the fertile coastal areas and 43% to the Palestinian majority, land lying in rugged mountainous areas.

The resolution simply alloted each side the areas its people inhabited. The coastal plain which is supposedly so fertile was actually rather desolate before the Jews got there: The Arab population in that area was concentrated in Jaffa, Haifa, and Acre, and much of the area was malarial swamp, which had been further devestated by neglect and warfare under the Ottomans.

Since 1920, the British mandate government has put Palestine in a difficult economic, administrative, and political situation, facilitating the establishment of a Jewish state and the displacement of Palestinians to seek jobs in the adjusting Arab countries .

In order to push the unarmed defenseless Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes. Jewish terrorist groups such as Irgun Zwei Leumi were brought in when other methods failed. On 9th April 1948, the Irgun Zwei Leumi led by Menachem Beigin, a former Israeli Cabinet Minister and former leader of the Opposition in the Israeli Parliament

Convenient juxtaposition of time.

attacked the small Arab village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem. An account of this barbaric massacre was given by Jacques de Reynier, the Chief Delegate of the International Red Cross , who was able to reach the village and witness the aftermath of the massacre: "Three hundred persons" he said, "were massacred ... without any military reason or provocation of any kind; old men women, children, newly-born were savagely murdered with grenades and knives by Jewish troops of the Irgun, entirely under the control of their chiefs."

The objective behind the Deir Yassin massacre was to terrify the Arab civilian population, and force them to flee to secure for the Zionists the land without the people. The plan succeeded and they fled in terror, to save their lives. Before May 15th, 1948, while the British Government was still responsible, the Jews had occupied many purely Arab cities like Jaffa and Acre and scores of villages that were in the territory assigned by the U.N. Resolution for the Arab State and evicted more than 300,000 inhabitants from their homes. In an attempt to stem this tide, the neighboring Arab states sent their armies on 15th May 1948 into Palestine. On 15th July 1948 the U.N. imposed a final truce between Israel and the Arabs, by which time Israel had occupied an even larger part of the territory allotted to the Arab State in Palestine.

The arab armies didn't come to defend Palestinians, they came to kill Jews. They said as much. They never did a thing for the Palestinians; in fact, they encouraged them to flee and then persecuted them severely. If you look at early interviews with Palestinian refugees, they hated the Arab states more than Israel.

The U.N. Mediator in Palestine, Count Bernadotte, in his report submitted to the General Assembly on 16th September 1948, stated: "It is, however, undeniable that no settlement can be just and complete if recognition is not accorded to the right of the Arab refugee to return to the home from which he has been dislodged by the hazards and strategy of the armed conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. It would be an offence against the principle of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine and indeed offer the threat of permanent replacement of the Arab refugees who have been rooted in the land for centuries." This statement cost Count Bernadotte dearly. On the next day he and his French assistant were assassinated in the Israeli sector of Jerusalem by Jewish terrorists.

On 11th December 1948 the General Assembly discussed Bernadotte's report and resolved: "that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbour should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date." This resolution has been annually re-affirmed by the U.N. ever since, but Israel continues to defy the U.N. and prevent the return of the refugees to their homes.

And this proves the right of their grandchildren to come back 54 years later.

It is of interest to note here that Zionist propagandists initiated, in an attempt to shirk their responsibility towards the refugees, a campaign stating that the refugees left their homes of their own free will, obeying orders broadcast to them by their Arab leaders. Erskine Childers, an Irish Journalist and author and at was the President of the Republic of Ireland from 1973 to 1974, devoted months to look into this claim and found it baseless. He examined the American and British monitoring records of all Middle East broadcasts throughout 1948 and reported: "There was not a single order or appeal or suggestion about evacuation from any Arab radio inside or outside Palestine in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

False. They forcibly evacuated the Arab population of Haifa. There was a scorched earth policy.


In the future, Kamrat, please avoid these cut-and-paste posts.


As to the actual issue, I don't think there is a "saudi plan." There was a claim by Thomas Friedman that King Abdullah claimed to have once written a plan whose actual details will not be disclosed, but which King Abdullah now says he will not deliever, which calls on Israel to execute provisions which are not known without finding out what they are.

I also disagree with the idea that terrorism is somehow caused by "the occupation." Terrorists just like the ones operating against Israel have killed tens, if not hundreds of thousands all over the Arab world in places which have not seen Jews for decades, if ever.

Imran: Most Israeli areas of Jerusalem would be sorrounded to. The area of Jerusalem simply isn't contiguous ethnically, whether Arafat likes it or not.