The Saudi Peace initiative - Yes or No

[BlackStone]

Should the Saudi Peace initiative be implemented with all of the ramifications that it would involve.

i.e.

Complete withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlements to 67 border.
Normalisation of relations between Israel and the Arab states.
Complete security guarantee given for Israel and Palestine by both USA & Europe.


It sounds good to me, and I am at a lose as to why it has not been done before.

[BeBMan]

Complete security guarantee given for Israel and Palestine by both USA & Europe.

I´ve heard about it, but what does that mean in detail? What would happen, if there are, e.g. terracts in Israel despite the guarantees?

[BlackStone]

I do think that if you take away the occupation and associated injustices this will go along way towards underminning the teror groups. But you are right the attacks would not stop immediately so there would have to be an impartial body that could overview security issues between the countries. I think though that there would have to be an agreement by all concerned that such attrocities would not be tolerated and backed up by US and European clout to inforce. I am short on the hows, but i do think that given the right support a workable frame work could be achieved.

[Eli]

Against.

As a whole, it's pretty good. Except the settlement blocks part and of course the Ancient City which are not issues I can compromise on.

But not now. We cannot trust the Pal leadership in arresting ticking bombs and they want us to give them all this land, 10 km from Tel Aviv?

Not in the next decade and not before the seventh war.

[Eli]

Originally posted by BlackStone
I think though that there would have to be an agreement by all concerned that such attrocities would not be tolerated and backed up by US and European clout to inforce. I am short on the hows, but i do think that given the right support a workable frame work could be achieved.

Israel cannot stop teracts, what makes you think European sissy sodiers will succeed?

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Eli


Israel cannot stop teracts, what makes you think European sissy sodiers will succeed?

Sissy soldiers

Don`t bit the hand that feeds you Eli. Remember the IDF has been bailed out in every major conflict, and that it is only because of US money and European trade that Israel exists anyway........ No need to thank us .

Whats your objection to the movement of the settlements. and when you say Ancient city do you mean jerusalem. Would you not consider making it an internation protectorate, a city of God, neutral, neither yours nor theirs but everyones?

[Eli]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Sissy soldiers

Don`t bit the hand that feeds you Eli.

Yeah. The EU really helps.

Remember the IDF has been bailed out in every major conflict,

What?
I remember that in the independence war we got our weapons from Czhechoslovakia. Not the US, and not the EU.
I also remember the Kadesh Campaign, when the French and the British cowardy withdrew without helping at all.
I remember the French embargos, and the Sherbourg(sp?) ships, and I remember that the US started helping us in 1973 only when we were on the verge of destroying Cairo and Damascuc.

and that it is only because of US money and European trade that Israel exists anyway........ No need to thank us .

Yes, the US aid and EU trade are important to us, but you're exaggerating.

Whats your objection to the movement of the settlements.

How can I support ethnic cleansing of Jews in the West Bank?

and when you say Ancient city do you mean jerusalem. Would you not consider making it an internation protectorate, a city of God, neutral, neither yours nor theirs but everyones?

I'm talking about the Ancient City of Jerusalem, not all Jerusalem.
After long long long period of no violence, steady economic development and no incitement I might agree to ceding some parts of East Jerusalem. That 1 square kilometer in the middle stays ours at any price.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Eli

Remember the IDF has been bailed out in every major conflict,

What?
I remember that in the independence war we got our weapons from Czhechoslovakia. Not the US, and not the EU.

Don´t worry, they´ll be in the EU sooner or later

[BlackStone]

Ethnic cleansing of Jews (settlements), I have never heard it called that before. I have heard them called illegal and provocative.
Does that 1 sq mile you talked about include the Dome of the Rock, because then we (figuratively speaking) are going to start getting into all kinds of trouble.

[BlackStone]

Eli - Tell me do you believe in the greater Israel idea (what ever that is) re settlements. And can you explain your thoughts on the ancient city idea and why you would want that to stay Israeli and not become neutral.

[BlackStone]

Additional

Also i presume that you voted against do you not have another alternative, Are there any flouting around in Israel.

Whats the feeling over there on this peace proposal.

[Eli]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Ethnic cleansing of Jews (settlements), I have never heard it called that before. I have heard them called illegal and provocative.

It doesnt change the fact that forcebly removing 200,000 Jews from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is ethnic cleansing.

Does that 1 sq mile you talked about include the Dome of the Rock, because then we (figuratively speaking) are going to start getting into all kinds of trouble.

It includes the Dome of the Rock, the whole temple mount and more.

Eli - Tell me do you believe in the greater Israel idea (what ever that is) re settlements. And can you explain your thoughts on the ancient city idea and why you would want that to stay Israeli and not become neutral.

No. Re-Settlement of Eretz Israel was important before 1948. Since then, the goal of an independent Jewish State was achieved. And Israel is not living the Greater Israel dream anymore.

As for Jerusalem. This place is holy for us, it's been the center of our aspirations and existance for 3000 years and bla bla bla, you know the rest.

Yes, I know it's holy for the Muslims too. They have the full right to pray there whenever they want, as long as they dont bother us from going there like they did in September 28th 2000.
But the area stays under our control.
I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots.

[BlackStone]

"I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots."

Eli your so ambiguous, what are you trying to say .


What about the peace proposal theirs or yours. Yhere must be some ideas flouting around out there that don`t involve chariots and long sticks.

[Eli]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Eli your so ambiguous, what are you trying to say .

Merkava is Hebrew for chariot.

What about the peace proposal theirs or yours. Yhere must be some ideas flouting around out there that don`t involve chariots and long sticks.

My opinion.
If in 10-15 years of no violence and no incitement they will agree to the following :
1) The West Bank, except the 2-3 major settlement blocks.
2) The Gaza Strip, plus some land in the Halutza sands in exchange for the WB settlement blocks.
3) Most of their demands in Eastern Jerusalem, except the Ancient city and couple more neighborhoods.
4) NO Right of Return.
5) No military.
6) No alliances with countries hostile to Israel.
7) Israel has full control over the Pal air space.
8) Compensations to the Pal refugees and to those Israeli settlers who will have to be removed will be paid by the EU and the US.
9) Israel will have the full right to do whatever it wants if any part of the agreement is not fullfilled.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Overall the plan seems a good idea.

Basicly, it goes toward all the demands the Palestinians may ever hope to fullfill so it will empty any rethorical support on terrorist acts.

This will weaken the support on terrorist groups:
- Formally they can no longer be presented to Palestinians as
heroic resistance forces. They will stand as the Crime Organizations that they are.
- Some of the popular support will automatically diminish.

Also, in my opinion (and I already voiced it here), European troops are the only ones that can be accepted to keep the peace. However, if there is no oposition regarding American presence there, I believe they could present themselves as imparcial partners (although they have been, until now, far from that impartial position). And, other than syssis, they are fully capable with enough proof given in Peacekeeping efforts (other than Israelly ones).

Basicly, the question here is to grant to Palestinians their legitimate selfdetermination rights and to Israellis the right to peacefully co-exist with their negihbours.

Some caveats, though:
- No plan will assure immediate peace and security. It takes much time to disband all the hatred between the two nations.
- Every terrorist act must be faced with the strictest of actions. However, that reaction must derive from the PeaceKeeping forces and never from Israelly ones, unless it is proven that it was done by Israelly citizens and inside the territory of Israel. In no event should Israelli forces be used to retaliate any terrorist action.
- Any slight indication, from any of the parts, of some intention of breaking the agreement must be faced with extreme economic and political sanctions. These sanctions must be stricktly followed by either in the US and Europe (where we find the ones most likelly to brake an economic sanction against Israel) and the Arab States (most likelly to brake and economic santion against a Palestinian State).

This much is difficult, surelly there are some adjustments to be made, but they must be presented in a constructive way.
To just vote against this proposal is not a viable solution, IMO.

Let's hope we can find in this thread some of our pro-Israel activists with some better, non-childish nor extremist, but rather constructive opinions on this proposal. It would be a sign of hope, i guess.