The Saudi Peace initiative - Yes or No

[BlackStone]

Eli - I am not sure that you will ever see your proposals being acceptable to the Palestinians. I am a little disapointed in this Might is Right tone. It is precisely that attitude that will lead to a repeat of Lebanon. You should ask yourself if Israeli society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.



Ecowiz Returns - I hope we will find some of those opinions you mentioned at the bottom of your post (I for one would be very interested). I think that you are right about an impartial force in the short to medium term & in not letting ant terror acts go past unanswered by a system that protects everyone.

[Eli]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Eli - I am not sure that you will ever see your proposals being acceptable to the Palestinians. I am a little disapointed in this Might is Right tone. It is precisely that attitude that will lead to a repeat of Lebanon. You should ask yourself if Israeli society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.

If the alternative is the RoR and giving up on the Temple Mount, yes.

Why dont you ask the same question concerning Palestinians? They suffered much more, you should ask yourself if Palestinian society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Eli


If the alternative is the RoR and giving up on the Temple Mount, yes.

Why dont you ask the same question concerning Palestinians? They suffered much more, you should ask yourself if Palestinian society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.

I would be if i knew of any Palestinians posting? Anyway as i see it they don`t have anything left to loose. I could be wrong.

And i was not including the right of return issue I know how much that scares the Israeli`s seeing as it would effectively end the state of Israel. Anyway i thought that they had come close to an agreement on that some go home the others are compensated.

[Sirotnikov]

ABout the saudi initiative:

Israel mostly sees it as a political hoax.

It is there to make Israel uncomfortable. We can't refuse, but we can't agree to anything as ambiguous and without meeting some terms that we have.

Meanwhile it's only their terms. What's the difference between that and submission?

Furthermore we'd have to let Arafat free or we are blamed in sabotaging the peace offer.



Why Saudi arabia put it up?
To continue and befriend the USA and distance itself from terrorist supporters in the eyes of USA.

Remember, most arab terrorists, as most 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. Not only that, Saudia is also a refuge to many terror groups and funds several of them.

It's policies are described by some to be as harsh as the Taliban's, though different and less brutal.

[Sirotnikov]

Btw, your notion that terracts only exist whent here is popular support is wrong.

33% of pals thought some month ago that the intifada was hurting their cause

25% were dissatisfied with terracts

20% were dissatisfied with Arafat.


They're begining to see the light.


When in the 90's there was supposedly no support for terracts, since Israel made Oslo etc., terracts raged on.

In 2000, after camp david during extensive peace talks with the Barak govt. Pals had no reason to start an intifada of terror. They were in the best situation since 1993.

This is controlled by the leadership = Arafat.

The reason Jordan and Egypt are so soft on Israel, is exactly because they know Arafat is the instigator and uses violence. Notice how they avoid questions regarding putting the blame for the intifada in the first place.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Two down, one to go

Siro:

Try to read your statistics like this:

"33% of pals thought some month ago that the intifada was hurting their cause", therefore 67% thought it wasn't.

"25% were dissatisfied with terracts", therefore 75% weren't.

"20% were dissatisfied with Arafat", therefore 80% are not

Given such strong numbers, what exactly is you definition of popular support?

Anyway, my Apolyton/Middle East survey has now 2 out of the 3 strictest pro-Israel activists presenting nothing of construtive. Let's hope Nathan break unanimity, otherwize we find here a pretty gloomy picture of Isreal's position on this issue ("our way or the highway").

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Eli


It doesnt change the fact that forcebly removing 200,000 Jews from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is ethnic cleansing.

And what do you call the ethnic cleansing of hundred of thousands of palestinians from what is now Israel in 1948? Justice? Or is the etnich cleansing a bad thing only when it´s affecting jews? Jeez...

[Grrr]

Damn Newbies, miss out the banana option
I refuse to vote due to such reasons.

I have another way!

Give every Palestinian (sp?) a load of bananas!

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
And what do you call the ethnic cleansing of hundred of thousands of palestinians from what is now Israel in 1948? Justice?

We usually call it past

Ok, suppose I tell you that 10,000 jews left israel, on thier own, following the terrorist actions against jews. Is that Ethnic Cleansing? Not according to my view.

In the same way, a big chunck of the 700,000 Arabs that left pre-1948 left on their own, because of fear of hostilities.

Or is the etnich cleansing a bad thing only when it´s affecting jews? Jeez...

Cleansing is always bad.

I am against cleansing of\by both sides, though I firmly believe it will eventually come to that.

[Adam Smith]

Eli:

You mention "2-3 major settlement blocks" in the West Bank. According to this MAP, would those be the groups of settlements south of Nablus, south of Bethlehem, and jsut above the southren boundary, south of Nablus?

What is the importance of these settlement blocks? Military? Economic? Historical?
Would the Palestinians have a viable state if Israel continued to hold these areas?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots.

And you wonder why there are terrorist attacks

With this policy it won't be long until one of Jerusalem's holy sites gets it, I'm afraid.

[Sirotnikov]

Re: Two down, one to go

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Siro:

First and foremost, I resent your subject line.

Try to read your statistics like this:

"33% of pals thought some month ago that the intifada was hurting their cause", therefore 67% thought it wasn't.

"25% were dissatisfied with terracts", therefore 75% weren't.

"20% were dissatisfied with Arafat", therefore 80% are not

Given such strong numbers, what exactly is you definition of popular support?

Well I compare it to previous polls, in which support for Arafat was higher.

Infact, the dissatisfaction with the intifada changed very little in the last few months IIRC.

Anyway, my Apolyton/Middle East survey has now 2 out of the 3 strictest pro-Israel activists presenting nothing of construtive.

This is a survey, not a "put in your own constructive plan here".

Further more, I fail to see how the descriptions strict and activist fit me.

I'm not strict. I'm generally very lax and soft, while I may not always show it.

What is wierder to me is the defenition "activist". I thought it was reserved strictly as a PC term for "terrorist".

In any case, I argue or debate or even get really mad. I don't really "act". I'm a 17 y/o with too little free time and ****ed up priorities

Let's hope Nathan break unanimity, otherwize we find here a pretty gloomy picture of Isreal's position on this issue ("our way or the highway").

I'm simply commenting on the proposal.
No new suggestions. I currently lack suggestions since I believe this will deteriorate into ethnic cleansing in the future.

I was however a great optimist and a big fzzy lefty during the Barak era.

[Lonestar]

Back on Track

I voted "No" Because, well, the Saudi's aren't really behind it. If they were, they would have put this forth long ago. As the same guys have been in power for 30 years, it isn't as if they could blame the previous administration for not issuing it.

It seems to me this is just a show for history's shake, "See! We suggested something before the final bloodbath began!".

In any event, they way things are right now, Israel would have to be on crack to reduce their width to 8 miles.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots.

And you wonder why there are terrorist attacks

With this policy it won't be long until one of Jerusalem's holy sites gets it, I'm afraid.

Infact one of the sites is getting it on a daily basis.

The muslim waqf was building new prayer areas and expanded byeond his lisences and destroyed lots of jewish archeological sites, esp. Solomon's Stables.

Many evidence of whole parts of pillars being thrown out and built over.



And not to mention Joseph's Tomb which was burned to the ground, and then rebuilt... as a mosque!

[Imran Siddiqui]

As the same guys have been in power for 30 years

Actually no... Crown Prince Abdullah now runs the show, and for all intensive purposes has become the rular of Saudi Arabia.

Siro, cavalier attitudes towards Arabs (like Eli seems to have) will only makes things worse.

I really like this Saudi plan, but Israel will never back it... and then good propaganda tool

Hell, it can be our 'Camp David' propaganda tool.