Oops - reread your post - my example should be the Gondormen not the elves - you referred to humans. Still, I don't see what the problem is.
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Racism in LOTR and Harry Potter
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Where tolkien comes closest to a racist vision is in his description of various "decaying/degenerate" peoples within the Human race.
Would seem a bit odd for a rascist to say that the future belongs to an inferior race (men), or that a superior race (elves) will disapear from the earth.Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit
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You've missed my point. Ignoring Elves and whatnot, all "Species" by traditional definition, secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure. Practically straight out of a turn-of-the-centure Racial Hygiene textbook.Världsstad - Dom lokala genrenas vän
Mick102, 102,3 Umeå, Måndagar 20-21
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secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure.
And men that are definetly "degenerate, decaying, impure" are the wildmen who fell under the evil workings of Sadam and Osama...uh...Morgoth and Sauron.Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit
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Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Their nation is decaying, yes. But is that rascist? Especcially since the Gondoreans are the big winners in the war, and they fought bravely.
And men that are definetly "degenerate, decaying, impure" are the wildmen who fell under the evil workings of Sadam and Osama...uh...Morgoth and Sauron.
You make a good point but it's.... crazy.A witty quote proves nothing. - Voltaire
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Originally posted by Snapcase
You've missed my point. Ignoring Elves and whatnot, all "Species" by traditional definition, secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure. Practically straight out of a turn-of-the-centure Racial Hygiene textbook.
At the same time, he does describe Numeroreans as becoming lesser when their blood intermingles with less pure blood, but this has less to do with racist beliefs as it does with Tolkiens belief in the "rights" of kings and his strong anti-democratic beliefs.Golfing since 67
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If you read Tolkien's introduction to LOTR it's apparent that actually he was a Ludite, someone who is anti-industry. The one allusion to a current event he makes in his introduction is to the destruction of the native beauty of the area he grew up in by modern mills. Remeber the despised hobbit Sandyman? Sam or Frodo has a dream in Lorthien that Sandyman will industrialize the Shire and render the farmers into vagabonds. Sandyman is a variation of the name of the mill that ruined his boyhood home. He makes repeated referrences in the books to the destruction of nature. The enemy's land's are filled with "foul" forges which blacken and pollute the land. Orcs destroy nature wantonly, while elves, who are distinctly fairie-like, live in harmony with nature. Hobbits are simple agricultural folk who have relatively ittle impact on nature in Tolkien's world.
AFAIK very few white supremicists are true "Green" people. If they think this piece of work favors them then they're deluded. Consider after all that white supremicists are hardly drawn from the Rhodes Scholars of our society."I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
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Originally posted by Velociryx
Star Wars is inherently racist too.
After all, to know one storm trooper is to know them all, what, with their head-to-toe uniforms that make them all look exactly the same....all of them are HORRIBLE shots....yep. Star Wars too.) and didn't allow any non-humans in the ranks of his stormtroopers.
*Waves flag with "Star Wars nerd" boldly emblazened on the front*
Tolkien's orcs were derived from elven stock in the first age when some of the Sindarian (those that didn't return to Valinor IIRC) elves fell under Morgoths sway. Similarly the Easterlings were likewise corrupted at the dawn of the age of men.
Both of these new "races" were portrayed as having "fallen" and lost that given to them by the Valar.
The Numenoreans were the remnants of the 3 tribes of the Edain who supported the Noldor in the war against Morgoth, and were gifted longer life by the Valar after the overthrow of Angband.
The lords of Numenor were direct descendants from Elros (Elronds brother) who chose to become human, and brought with him the wisdom and power of his elvish/Maiar heritage.
It was never really intended as being a question of race but rather of beliefs and their consequences.
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Originally posted by Snapcase
You've missed my point. Ignoring Elves and whatnot, all "Species" by traditional definition, secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure. Practically straight out of a turn-of-the-centure Racial Hygiene textbook.
Also consider that Tolkien patterned the book after the mythology of Finland. Though I'm not familiar with the Finnish legends on which the book is loosely based, in the myhology of various European groups it was common to allude to people of the old days as being bigger, stronger, or even more pure. I believe the reasoning was that since the elders must have played some part in the making of the world they would have had to be bigger, stronger and etc."I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
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Originally posted by Faboba
I currently have the silmarillion sitting about 20 centimetres from me as I type this. I must get around to reading it.Golfing since 67
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If you really want to find racism in Tolkien you can look at the descriptions of the humans that fought in the war. On the side of good you have the heroic, valorous and pale-skinned peoples of the North and West. Fighting for Sauron you have the Swarthy Men, the cruel Southrons and Easterlings, and "out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." But I prefer this passage:
"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace--all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."
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