What should the EU do about US power?

[el freako]

In terms of being able to project it's millitary power the US is way ahead of the EU nations - and as such is increasingly likely to act in ways we europeans find distateful.

In some ways the current situation where the EU expects a voice in US policymaking whilst being unable to provide any significant millitary support is the worst of both worlds.

We give (guarded) moral support to a lot of US missions without having any real say in them - as such we get little influence over US policy whilst suffering some of the same anger when other nations dislike US policies.
Whereas the US can see no benefit to having the European's 'on board' other than the moral justification of acting as part of an alliance as opposed to completely on it's own.


I think that there are two ways that Europe could go...

It could either spend more on developing a significant millitary force - in order to do this we would probably need to spend significantly more than the US does for at least 10 years to develop the 'power-projection' forces we lack - the US would then be able to spend less but would also need to accept the EU as an equal partner with equal say.

Or Europe could keep it's millitary spending at a minimum as any power that could threaten our interests would probably also be an even bigger threat to US interests as so would likely be dealt with by them - this would be very like the position of the US in the 19th century vis-a-vis the British Empire - of course this would mean that Europe could expect no influence over US policymaking.


Both of these options would make a certain amount of sense for both America and Europe - I myself find it hard to choose between them - and I was wondering what people here think.

[Paul Hanson]

The EU and US need to develop a half-decent working relationship, and the first step towards this is for Europe to develop a coherent military force that can match America's. Without this, America can do what it likes and is frankly well within it's rights to tell Europe to shove it whenever we whinge about whatever they are doing. Europe is attempting to talk the talk when it can't walk the walk.

[Kyle]

I wouldn't mind a more equal relationship with the EU. Maybe then, they'll be able to take some of the flak we always get.

[Shi Huangdi]

If the EU wants an equal say, it would need to build up a military deserving of it. But no matter how mulitlateralist we ever are, we will never give up our right to defend ourself, as we are doing now in Afghanistan. We will never have a veto on European foreign policy anymore then Europe will have a veto on American foreign policy.

[The Andy-Man]

the EU military combined (remember, Britain has 2 half decent carriers, France has a few avergae ones) would be fairly powerful. plus they are mostly small and elitest (ie the SAS) so all of the merged could be quite a threat to the US in itself.

But they way i see it is the EU for some reason is happy to let the US play Mr Gun, because the European economy is growing with low lmilitary spending whilst the US economy is increassingly in deficit spending, and with an increased military bill, always on the up, the US is becomeing more dependent on EU money to finance it. so in say 30yrs, the US will have turned into what post war Britain was - thinks it is the super power but has become so dependent on someone elses money it need their permission to do what it wants.



And the is also the point that if Europe had a big enough military and said to the US 'withdraw all your military units from the mediterrainian and Euro mainland' the US is probably very likey to goto war to keep its influence in this part of the world.

[BeBMan]

I think building up Europe´s military power is only possible when we get rid of the national armies for every single European country. Currently, every European country waste its money to have a rather weak army compared to the USA. Ok, every country has its strengths, but generally noone in Europe can have military power similar to the USA alone, this is simply not realistic.

But it would need a lot of time to create unified European forces.

[Zoid]

Since there wasn´t an option that said "Beef up the military and conquer and enslave the entire US" I voted for banana production.

[faded glory]

EU cant afford the kind of Budgets USA has. They have huge Social priorities to keep up on, where we dont. Its almost impossible for them to bring up the 400 billion a year we do...and thats of course, not even counting the black and approariation projects (+50-200 bil).

[Kyle]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man
the

But they way i see it is the EU for some reason is happy to let the US play Mr Gun, because the European economy is growing with low lmilitary spending whilst the US economy is increassingly in deficit spending,

Actually no, the long term forcasts still call for surplus.

The Congressional Budget Office, which only weeks ago, was predicting that the federal budget would plunge back into deficit this year has now reversed itself. The CBO now says the economy is "currently rebounding in a remarkable fashion," which it says should lead to a surplus of $5 billion to $6 billion. That assumes, of course, that Congress does not embark on a heavy round of additional new spending. While the CBO also predicts deficits next year and the year after, it says there will be an overall net surplus of $681 billion over the next 10 years.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,47331,00.html

[faded glory]

because the European economy is growing with low lmilitary spending whilst the US economy is increassingly in deficit

Yes and no. Europe economic growth is in the ditches right now. But it goes up with the USA. First off, Your knowledge is lacking, Economy's dont run Deficits. Governments run deficits. There is no relation between the two.


second. European growth outside of germany is usaully lacking. Even in the best of times.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by BeBro
I think building up Europe´s military power is only possible when we get rid of the national armies for every single European country. Currently, every European country waste its money to have a rather weak army compared to the USA. Ok, every country has its strengths, but generally noone in Europe can have military power similar to the USA alone, this is simply not realistic.

But it would need a lot of time to create unified European forces.

The first attempt to create a pan-european army was done in... the 50's by France.

Unfortunately the deal crashed and burned when it was not voted in favor by the french parliement which considered it an unacceptable for that time surrender of national powers

After that development the concept of achieving political union before military was established.

[Mercator]

I think there are way to few options in your poll, since I don't agree with any of 'em...
I'll vote for: "I'm from the EU and I think the US should get its army down to EU standards."

[Rogan Josh]

Why on Earth would the EU want an army as big as the US army???

The whole point of the EU criticising the US, is that we don't want them to go around killing people quite so much. Why would we counter that by doing the same thing?



The only way to try and deal with the US is to try and acheive economic dominance. This is something which Europe can and should do (although it policy makers would need a serious kick up the arse first....). The EU has a highly trained populace and good infrastructure, as well as good relations (on the whole - at least better than the US) with developing countries.

Nowadays econimic dominance = cultural dominance, so by Europe gaining economic dominance, maybe we could somehow trandfer our views onto the US populace and teach those Americans how to behave themselves.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by paiktis22



The first attempt to create a pan-european army was done in... the 50's by France.

Unfortunately the deal crashed and burned when it was not voted in favor by the french parliement which considered it an unacceptable for that time surrender of national powers

After that development the concept of achieving political union before military was established.

Currently, there exists a French-German corps (or something like that, I forgot the exact name ) - it could be a model for the future of Europe´s military...

[el freako]

Originally posted by faded glory
EU cant afford the kind of Budgets USA has. They have huge Social priorities to keep up on, where we dont. Its almost impossible for them to bring up the 400 billion a year we do...and thats of course, not even counting the black and approariation projects (+50-200 bil).

FD, that's rubbish.

To get defence spending up to the US's level would require a rise in the EU's tax burden (measured as taxation's share of GDP) of less than 6% - between 1989 and 1999 it went up by 5%.

Originally posted by faded glory
Economy's dont run Deficits. Governments run deficits. There is no relation between the two.

Wrong, an economy's deficit is called the 'current account deficit' - the US currently has a deficit equivalent to 4% of it's income, a significant chunk of it financed by European capital.

Originally posted by faded glory
European growth outside of germany is usaully lacking. Even in the best of times.

Whilst most EU member state do grow a bit slower than the US (in 1990 the EU's current 15 member's GDP, after adjusting for the economic cycle, was 98% of the US's, by 2000 that figure had dropped to 96%) you have to remember that it keeps adding countries (indeed for the member states as they were in 1990 that previously mentioned figure was 90% of the US's level) and is likely to do so for the next 15-20 years.