Who said Afghanistan wouldn't be another Vietnam...

[Natan]

So in short, your statements here are just the sum of your biases.

[Giancarlo]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/World/Afghanistan/

- Hundreds of Taliban/Al Qaeda fighters have been killed.

It is over for them.

[Transcend]

France and other Nazi occupied territories were heavily bombed during WW2. Did the people hate the Allies for that? No. Same deal with Afghanistan.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Natan
So in short, your statements here are just the sum of your biases.

Biases come in two ways, from the other side too.
It is funny when these biases are called "opinions" when they are pleasant to you (or to whoever).. isn't it?

In any case not exactly biases since you'll see that I never advocated to be certain. And the suspition of torture is not based on what I think of a particular country but on what these situations are inherently infested with and what the ones involved in it have been done in the past.
So you can call it a rumour or more accurately a "smoke".

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Transcend
France and other Nazi occupied territories were heavily bombed during WW2. Did the people hate the Allies for that? No. Same deal with Afghanistan.

This is not a world war. It is a country bombed by another country which to many of these people represents "satan" or something of that sort.

Some will like you for it (the enemies of the taliban) some will not (the friends of the taliban and anyone who had a dear person to him killed by your bombs - we are talking about civilians here).

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by paiktis22


This is not a world war. It is a country bombed by another country which to many of these people represents "satan" or something of that sort.

Some will like you for it (the enemies of the taliban) some will not (the friends of the taliban and anyone who had a dear person to him killed by your bombs - we are talking about civilians here).

I think most will... because they were starving paiktis, if the US didn't go in and shutdown the taliban for good, millions of would died.

[Natan]

Originally posted by paiktis22


Biases come in two ways, from the other side too.
It is funny when these biases are called "opinions" when they are pleasant to you (or to whoever).. isn't it?

In any case not exactly biases since you'll see that I never advocated to be certain. And the suspition of torture is not based on what I think of a particular country but on what these situations are inherently infested with and what the ones involved in it have been done in the past.
So you can call it a rumour or more accurately a "smoke".

The reason I called it "the sum of your biases" is that you have not provided even a single piece of information, not one little trivial factoid, to back up your outrageous claim. The whole basis of it was that "because I like to think of America as a nasty place, I believe that they torture people." Normally, when people say that their neighbor must be an ax murderer because of the way he wears his hair, they're joking. I hope you are too.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by paiktis22

Some will like you for it (the enemies of the taliban) some will not (the friends of the taliban and anyone who had a dear person to him killed by your bombs - we are talking about civilians here).

Given the speed of Taliban collapse, it's apparent they don't have much support among Afghans. I bet most Afghans nowadays are kind waiting to see how things are going to turn out. If the current government is doing a much better better than Talibans, then the pains caused by US bombings will be forgotten. If not, we'll have troubles.

[Bereta_Eder]

Natan,
I cannot have any evidence now since they are all monopolized by the government. Fortunately we will both be alive in 50 years and we can see for ourselves what happened once these files become public.

For the time being, contemplate this:

the US is under attack with thousands of victims.
the possibility of further attacks is so clear it shines
meanwhile the US is fighting a war in a historically proven difficult terrain
do you believe, even for one minute, that americans (or most other people - nationality matters very little in these things) would not use torture and then justify it within an instant if they thought that it meant acquiring valuable information?

I don't need to have evidence (actually I can't by default have any evidence in this for the reasons I explained) so logic is the next best thing. And logic, in this matter, is unwavering and devastatingly obvious.

About the US, its history has proven that it is capable of acting without any morality (as do most if not all countries) and due to its power the damage done is greater.

But this is has not to do about the US but about the overall situation. Logic directs in this way.

Maybe it's time for you to leave your pro-american biases behind and face reality and logic?

What is outrageous (and very dicomforting) is that you refuse to contemplate that possibility because it involves americans. A clear bias if I have ever seen one

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Transcend


Given the speed of Taliban collapse, it's apparent they don't have much support among Afghans. I bet most Afghans nowadays are kind waiting to see how things are going to turn out. If the current government is doing a much better better than Talibans, then the pains caused by US bombings will be forgotten. If not, we'll have troubles.

I agree and that's why we must not abandon this place now. It is one of those rare instances where doing the right thing and serving one's interests are identical.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by paiktis22
I cannot have any evidence now since they are all monopolized by the government. Fortunately we will both be alive in 50 years and we can see for ourselves what happened once these files become public.

For the time being, conemplate this:

the US is under attack with thousands of victims.
the possibility of further attacks is so clear it shines
meanwhile the US is fighting a war in a historically proven difficult terrain
do you believe, even for one minute, that americans (or most other people) would not use torture and then justify it within an instant if they thought that it meant acquiring valuable information?

No they would not!

I don't need to have evidence (actually I can't by default have any evidence in this for the reasons I explained) so logic is the next best thing. And logic, in this matter, is unwavering and devastatingly obvious.

Quite trolling!

About the US, its history has proven that it is capable of acting without any morality (as do most if not all countries) and due to its power the damage done is greater.

I am about to doze off because these trolls are so tediously incorrect.

Maybe it's time for you to leave your pro-american biases behind and face reality and logic?

Damn it paiktis, maybe you should leave your pro-terrorist biases and start looking at what really happened. You either are with the civilized world or against it.

What is outrageous (and very dicomforting) is that you refuse to conemplate that possibility because it involves americans. A clear bias if I have ever seen one

And you fail to demostrate any slightest amount, even a small drop of evidence to prove what you are saying.

[Bereta_Eder]

AND BTW Natan, I remember you writing that mild torture (as is permitted by the Israeli consitution IIRC) was an "acceptable means for acquiring information" if it meant preventing imminent terrorist attacks... (it was a debate with GP who very dynamically refused to accept it, and GP is a member of the US army and that's one of the things that give me great hope)

What changed with you now?

[Bereta_Eder]

I'm off to bed. One more thing. There are about 177 Greek soldiers with their vehicles and equipment somewhere in Afganistan right now.

Can I guarantee that they will be 100% correct and acting like soldiers worthy of representing Greece in a moral manner?

I'm sorry to say that I can't. I cannot know with absolute certainty that they will not act immoraly.

I "feel" that they won't and that they will stand correct.
But I can never exclude a priori this possibility. And not excluding possibilities like that (nomatter how crude the example I used) is also doing a service to the "civilized world". (taking into consideration all aspects of a situation of course - not acting like holier-than-thou scum).

edit: and BTW in the beggining I fully agree that it was a minor troll

[Natan]

Paiktis, did I say we shouldn't torture Al-Qaida terrorists under any circumstance? No, I just said that we don't. It's different. You claim that US history proves that we can act without any morality, but do you have any examples of cases where the CIA itself tortured people? Or, more relevantly to the Guantanamo case, where the US marines did?

[Tingkai]

What I would like to know is where are all the apolytoners who claimed the war would be over by Christmas, or who claimed the Taliban had been defeated?

Anyone want to fess up that they got it wrong?