How can people prefer National Socialism over Communism?

[Serb]

Re: Re: Skata stous fasistes!

Originally posted by faded glory
must be more Revionist Bull****. He never allied with Fascism. With all do respect, What the f.. are you talking about?

Do a basic historical research about external policy of GB, France and USA in 30th of last century, and you'll understand what he talking about.

Happily, I don't fully comprehend the difference. Both are arbitrary reasons for the state to kill someone.

I'm not surprised. Your people must went through it to understand the difference.

[DanS]

I have a pretty good idea about what happened in the Ukraine and Siberia and don't find it any more palatable than national socialism. They're all garments cut from the same cloth--a basic lack of respect for human life.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Just trying to flesh out my understanding

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Then on what basis do Trotskyists and Leninists condemn the use of State terror in any form? Just the fact that a Communist State isn't doing it?

You might remember that the Red Terror wasn't like any terror that followed it. It was a response to a specific problem facing the survival of the Russian Republic, and it ended when the war ended. It was not arbitrary, nor was it comparitvely bloody in the context of the Civil War and the prior and continuing White Terror. Nine million people died in that war, only 50,000 as a result of the Red Terror.

Furthermore, the Red Terror was targetted, whereas the White Terror was indiscriminate. Stefu can tell you about the White Terror's effects in Finland, even if he's glad the Red's lost there. One quarter of the Finnish working class was slaughtered that awful summer of 1918 by the Whites and their German allies.

The Red Terror was directed at active members of the enemy, not ideological adversaries (although, unfortunately, that did happen). To get targetted by the Checka, you had to be a spy, a sabatour, a terrorist, or some such. Merely opposing the Bolsheviks was not enough (or wasn't supposed to be enough). As long as you didn't support the enemies of Bolshevism militarily, you were supposedly safe.

No such guarantee was forthcoming from the Whites, or their foreign allies. Anyone even suspected of sympathyzing with the Reds or anarchists or independence movements was summarily executed.

We don't blanket condemn state terror. I wouldn't hesitate to unleash a Red Terror in a revolutionary Worker's Republic of North America if we were being invaded by Russia, Europe, and China, with counter-revolutionary armies running around America.

On the other hand, I do blanket comdemn state-terror against peaceful oppostion, be it pro-capitalist or not. I personally belief and defend the right to peacefully express your views in a public forum (though I will grant you that many of my non-Trotskyist comrades do not, but then, I'd be in the gulags along with you, if I didn't get a swift trip to a ditch).

[Serb]

Originally posted by DanS
I have a pretty good idea about what happened in the Ukraine and Siberia and don't find it any more palatable than national socialism. They're all garments cut from the same cloth--a basic lack of respect for human life.

Then enlighten me about what happen there, and I'll try to explain the difference between them.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Serb

Then enlighten me about what happen there, and I'll try to explain the difference between them.

Stalin forced millions of ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians.....Millions......of them. He raided the cities, packed them into trains and told them to start settling Siberia. Dont tell me these were voluntary, the survivors tell you differently.


Also, Serb, again. You have not lived under Fascism/Nationalist Socialism. So, I can say. You dont know whats that like. So flip side of the coin.

Personally. **** them both.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by faded glory


Stalin forced millions of ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians.....Millions......of them. He raided the cities, packed them into trains and told them to start settling Siberia. Dont tell me these were voluntary, the survivors tell you differently.

Completely unlike the millions of Africans that were packed up and sold into slavery so that American and European capitalists could make a profit.

[Serb]

Originally posted by faded glory


Stalin forced millions of ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians.....Millions......of them. He raided the cities, packed them into trains and told them to start settling Siberia. Dont tell me these were voluntary, the survivors tell you differentl

First of all, when exactly in Ukraine it hapen? And how ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians used to be in Ukraine? And why if there Millions of them they are ethnic minority?
If you talking about deportaion of ethnic Crimean tatars after the end of WW2, then I know about this, but it was not a millions of them in Crim. And they fought against Red army on Hitlers side this is not propaganda, my grandfather fought against them in Crim in WW2 and he told me that it's true, they were traitors. Of course not all of them, but do you think Stalin has time and possibility to judge them properly? The time was different and because of it actions were different. (But, I do not want to defend Stalins actions)

Also, Serb, again. You have not lived under Fascism/Nationalist Socialism. So, I can say. You dont know whats that like. So flip side of the coin.

Personaly I am not, but my people did. And I know better than you what I'm talking about.
My grand grandfather was a colonel of Red army. He was slain in times of Stalin purges, after the death warrant of farce court, because someone thought that he is not loyal enough to Stalin.
Another my grand grandfather was killed on front when he defend Moscow. My grandfather (the husbant of dother of my grand grandfather killed in purges) was several times injured and went through all WW2, he has two brothers, both of them were killed on front, he was the only surrvival. I am know about fascism very well, much more then you. Fascist's occupation for example of France was VERY, VERY different from ocupation of Russia. You can't imaginethe atrocities they done on our land. And I am lucky that I didn't live under Fascism/Nationalist Socialism, because in that case I was already dead.
Now, I'll explain the difference between being hanged after the farce court, and being burned alive because you are Jews or Slav."
When my grand grandfather was slain during Stalin's purges. His "crime" was that he is not loyal to regime.
The only "crime" of all victims of fascism was that they have different nationality or color of skin. Fascism born hate in people's hearts, it turns people to monsters. There is nothing "human" in "man" who burned alive a child and enjoed this. THIS is the most terrible thing.
P.S. Of course you are right, both of them were bastards. But the topic not about Stalin vs. Hitler, it is about ideas of pure communism vs. ideas of national socialism.

[Serb]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Completely unlike the millions of Africans that were packed up and sold into slavery so that American and European capitalists could make a profit.

And you forget to include the genocide of Native Americans.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Just out of curiosity, how many of the commies in this thread are either Leninist or Trotskyist?

I wouldn´t label myself trotskyist, but my party has trotskyist roots. Socialist Party, Sweden section of the Fourth International (USFI)

[Ming]

Originally posted by Serb
But the topic not about Stalin vs. Hitler, it is about ideas of pure communism vs. ideas of national socialism.

If that is indeed the case, communism win's hand down.
It is a wonderful ideal to aim for.

However, once you add humans to the equation, you get communism like we've seen it before... it won't work.
A lot of changes have to occur with mankind before communism could ever work in it's pure form.

[Serb]

However, once you add humans to the equation, you get communism like we've seen it before... it won't work.
A lot of changes have to occur with mankind before communism could ever work in it's pure form.

Of course.
Btw, beeing a Russian and beeing a communist is not the same thing. As I've said I remember SU very good. This system has it advantages and disadvantages, and actully I am not admier of that system. But some of Dalgetti's arguments (in his off topic debate about capitalism vs. communism) are absolutely clear for me, as well as arguments of his opponents. I am neutral about what is better communism how Dalgetti see it or capitalism.

[Zoid]

Che: Are you affiliated with any party in the US? I know you don´t like SWP...

[Imran Siddiqui]

First of all, when exactly in Ukraine it hapen? And how ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians used to be in Ukraine? And why if there Millions of them they are ethnic minority?

In Ukraine the slaughter happened after 1928, when Stalin ended the NEP and decided to go for totalitarianism. He was upset at the Ukraine Kulaks (small capitalist farmers). He basically surrounded Ukraine with troops and prevented any food from going in. Forced starvation was the result with anywhere from 15-25 million Ukrainians killed.

Hell, like I said, I'd take almost anyone over Stalin.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

First of all, when exactly in Ukraine it hapen? And how ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians used to be in Ukraine? And why if there Millions of them they are ethnic minority?

In Ukraine the slaughter happened after 1928, when Stalin ended the NEP and decided to go for totalitarianism. He was upset at the Ukraine Kulaks (small capitalist farmers). He basically surrounded Ukraine with troops and prevented any food from going in. Forced starvation was the result with anywhere from 15-25 million Ukrainians killed.

Hell, like I said, I'd take almost anyone over Stalin.

Ohhhh. That's what you was talking about. A period of our history known as "colectivizacia". 15-25 millions is not correct nomber, if so much people died no one left in Ukraina, but yes it was very many victims of hunger, just not so much as you typed.
But why you mention only Ukraniane "kulaks"? This hapenns every where in that time. It was agricaltural reform as Stalin saw it. And I do not understood how

Stalin forced millions of ethnic chechens, uzbeks, tajiks, gerogians.

nationalities were involved in this. For Stalin's plan was no any difference who are you Ukranian, Jews or Russian. If you are deny his program (give anything you have for common use for whole village) you are enemy, and this not depended on nationality. Was is it bad? Yes, it was terrible. Every country has shame pages in it's history, look at colonization of Wild West, if you think that Americans always acted better than Russians.

[Imran Siddiqui]

15-25 millions is not correct nomber, if so much people died no one left in Ukraina, but yes it was very many victims of hunger, just not so much as you typed.

Actually, it might have been more. Ukraine was utterly decimated... there is a reason plenty of Ukrainians (at least those I know in the US) hate Russia.