How can people prefer National Socialism over Communism?

[steelehc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Imram, Nazism and National Socialism are the same. Fascism is different from both. That may be what you were thinking.

Actually you are incorrect, and actually most people are incorrect.

Fascism is a term given to the movement by Mussolini, for the Italian word Fasci (his party).

Before then, people like Barres (who came up with Fascism in the early 20s in France) named the movement National Socialism. Mussolini's name for it stuck, since he was the first to impliment it.

That may be, and if so, we are both equally and partially wrong. National Socialism is an accepted term for Nazism. The actual name of the Nazi party is the Nationalsozialistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP.

That is the context in which I was using national Socialism, and in that case, I was correct, you were wrong. In the context you mentioned, using Barres party, you are correct, and I am not.

However, National Socialism is used primarily to refer to Nazism, and using it to refer to Barres will lead to much confusion.

Steele

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ah, no wonder Mussolini called his party that. After all, he wanted a 'New Rome'.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by steelehc
That may be, and if so, we are both equally and partially wrong. National Socialism is an accepted term for Nazism. The actual name of the Nazi party is the Nationalsozialistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP.

That is the context in which I was using national Socialism, and in that case, I was correct, you were wrong. In the context you mentioned, using Barres party, you are correct, and I am not.

However, National Socialism is used primarily to refer to Nazism, and using it to refer to Barres will lead to much confusion.

Steele

Yes, perhaps... however, for this discussion, I was using it to mean to Fascism. Because that is the only fair way to compare it to Communism (in the ideal sense). If you wanted to you the Nazis, then compare it to Stalinism.

You know what I mean?

[DanS]

Ecthelion: I don't know which I would decide. It's so close. Both have proven inherently evil and unstable forms of government. But I voted for National Socialism.

The thing is, it's unrealistic to distinguish between the ideals of these ideologies and their ultimate consequences. So, for instance, communism isn't absolved from its association with Stalin and Mao, just as National Socialism isn't absolved from its association with Hitler.

In order to compare communism and National Socialism fairly, you would have to play bizarre what-if games, where Nazi Germany survives the war and Hitler eventually dies. Would there have been a backlash against Hitler's policies, such as there was with Stalin? Tough to say.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Like I said, National Socialism doesn't mean Nazi. Many Fascist writers refered to Fascism as National Socialism (in fact it was called that before Mussolini gave it the name Fascism).

bleh... the origibal question was "if you had to decide between Nazis and Communists, how would you vote?"... and common sense tells us he was referring to the German Natinal Socialists, and they happened to be lead by Hitler.

Noone, truly noone but PH has considered the 20s situation in Germany and used the German communist party of that time as example for Communism. Instead, peopel keep on bashing Stalin when it just doesn't fit into the topic

[steelehc]

Imran: Yes, I believe I understand.

I think a way to simplify this discussion is as follows:

Nazism:Stalinism::Fascism:Communism

Both Fascism and Communism are not evil ideas, they are both very admirable, if they can be made to work. However, they cannot be, and the efforts of trying have resulted in things like Nazism and Stalinism. Nazism and Stalinism are very extreme, screwed up, and inherently evil versions of their brethern, Fascism and Communism, respectively.

The original question was asked about Nazism and Communism, however I think he meant to compare Nazism ans Stalinism. That is much harder, and could take literally months or years to discuss in depth.

Steele

[Shi Huangdi]

I don't think there would be a realalistic chance of Germany going communist in the 1920's, the communists would have been put down by the French army.

[Imran Siddiqui]

bleh... the origibal question was "if you had to decide between Nazis and Communists, how would you vote?"... and common sense tells us he was referring to the German Natinal Socialists, and they happened to be lead by Hitler.

Common sense also tells us if you are using the Nazis then by refering to Communists, you are refering to Stalinism.

[Ecthy]

No, because if Nazism = national socialism = hitler ideoglogy then communism = Luxemburg and Liebkncecht ideology, and those people were not evil, power-obessed murderers...

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, because it doesn't make sense to compare Nazis to bread and butter Communists.

And Communism where ever it has been implimented is closer to the Stalin type.

[Velociryx]

IMO, Communism is all about excuses.

What I mean by that is simply this:

There are, even today, those who hold up Communistic ideals, but when asked to point to even one single instance where those ideals have been:

1) Adhered to in even a liberal sense of the word,
and
2) Not corrupted by some powermongering dictator
and
3) Capable of competing head to head with a more capitalist-oriented country

....then, out come the excuses....

Everything from....
"Well, you can't judge communism by Stalin or Mao"
to
"Oh...but Communism was meant to be applied on a global scale."

Ah ha.

So...we're supposed to take a system of government that's proven time and time again that it's susceptable to being commandeered by powermongering dictators, and can't compete evenly with capitalistic societies in any case, and apply it globally?

This....makes no sense to my brain.

Of COURSE communism can be equated to the Mao's and Stalin's of the world, just as Facism can be equated to the Hitler's of the world, because those systems of government are easy prey for the powermongers of the world.

I ask the question again, how many failed attempts do you NEED in order to finally become convinced that it just doesn't work?!

Capitalism is all about results.

I can point to any number of nations in existence RIGHT NOW who are off the chart where standard of living is concerned. Guess what? NONE of the top economic powers in the world are communist.

Oh...I can hear the China argument right now...and how did China jumpstart their economy? Was it...via a better five year plan, or was it by PRIVATIZING industries???

People are soooo quick to point out the inequities in the system, and YES...they certainly are there.

Question for you though?

How many millionaires are there, per capita in China?

How many in the USA?

How many people made MILLIONS by applying themselves diligently in the US this year alone?

Gaahhh! I just don't get it. Yeah....let's make a global switch to a system of government that's proven itself faulty time and time again....sounds lovely!

-=Vel=-

[faded glory]

Originally posted by paiktis22


I guess he was lucky enough to never cross paths with my great uncle. He burried quite a few of these scum before being caught and tortured to death.
And if your father doesn't remember anything he is as good as dead.

He wasnt me father, me grandfather. And he fought a world away, in france. Besides, didnt the italians patrol occupied greece?

Where did he serve? Shoving sh!t in Indiana?
Else he's lucky he wasn't burried somewhere in Europe and Russia.

And you have inherited his dead memory

Moron... he came over as a POW and the rest is history.

You can just **** off for all I care.

Likewise.....

We have lived under the Nazis and we know their monstrosity,
people have lived in Yugoslavia and know the communists and they know how it is.

"we"? "We"???? Wha?? You obvouisy didnt. You didnt suffer from jack ****. thats the point I was trying to make. So stop trying to portray yourself as some sort of a victim. Its pure bull**** and is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

You know sh!t but your propaganda so you can shut up.
You're just a Nazi's offspring. I pity you if your contrymen "know" as much as you do.

yada.....yada... there now, are you done foaming at the mouth?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by faded glory
He wasnt me father, me grandfather. And he fought a world away, in france. Besides, didnt the italians patrol occupied greece?

One more proof that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Moron... he came over as a POW and the rest is history.

What difference does it make if he came as a POW or as an honored guest?

Likewise.....

yup and right back at you again

"we"? "We"???? Wha?? You obvouisy didnt. You didnt suffer from jack ****. thats the point I was trying to make. So stop trying to portray yourself as some sort of a victim. Its pure bull**** and is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

you have understood sh!t.

yada.....yada... there now, are you done foaming at the mouth?

Do you have something more to add?

[faded glory]

Welcome paiktas, to the ignore list.

[Bereta_Eder]

Convenient.