When movies get facts wrong. . .

[HisMajestyBOB]

what really irks me is when they get military facts wrong. Most people don't care at all about the patriotism, etc. They'll be lucky if they can get who was fighting in the Revolutionary war right, much less whether the English butchered people

but its really bad when in Godzilla the display in the jet reads "harpoon" ( a air to ship missle) and the missle flying towards Madison square garden is clearly a maverick (IIRC) and it only takes 2 of them to blow the whole place up

[Al B. Sure!]

i think it all has to do with the fact that directors, actors, and screen-writers make movies... these aren't historians or military tacticians or military engineers... they're just story-creators and presenters... some of them make good stories even if they are false, better than any historian could make.


thanks

[JohnT]

Thank you, Albert.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
i think it all has to do with the fact that directors, actors, and screen-writers make movies... these aren't historians or military tacticians or military engineers... they're just story-creators and presenters... some of them make good stories even if they are false, better than any historian could make.


thanks

I have to disagree.

Movies are made to entertain, but if it is going to portray a historical event even in the medium of entertainment, it has to reasonably accurate. You can maintain reasonable accuracy and still entertain the audience.

There is one old, old, movie that was produced for the propaganda purpose of white supremacy--Birth of a Nation, produced in 1915. It helped establish the myths of the Reconstruction era and wrongly justified why blacks needed to be kept in place by lynching and segregation.

[Dis]

you all know I think americans are generally dumb. but I think some of you here think americans are even more dumb than the rest of the world. Yes this pisses me off. I'm tired of all the anti-american talk around here. Are you telling me that Europeans are smarter than americans?

Yes I do believe americans are smart enough to realize that they aren't getting told the exact truth when they watch a fictional movie. Because american understand the meaning of the word fiction. They realize they are watching the movie for entertainment, not actual truth.

I find the notion that americans can't separate fact from fiction pretty insulting. Not to me (because I cannot be insulted), but to americans.

I expect apoligies to every american by some members of this thread by March 15, 2002.

[JohnT]

Oh, c'mon MrFun! Even then BoN was vilified for it's racism and rewriting of history - well, except for Woodrow Wilson, who in an apoplytic (sp!) fit of white guilt said "It's like writing history with lightning. And my only regret is that it is all terribly true."

http://www.filmsite.org/birt.html

You might want to read about D. W. Griffiths answer to his critics, Intolerance, in which he explores the "themes of intolerance, man's inhumanity to man, hypocrisy, bigotry, religious hatred, persecution, discrimination and injustice achieved in all eras by entrenched political, social and religious systems."

http://www.filmsite.org/into.html

By the way, a bit off-topic here. Filmsite.org is a great movie site and should be visited by all fans of the medium. Check it out while you're there.

[The Third Man]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
Let´s face it Hollywood spews out as much propaganda as Nazi-Germany or the Soviets ever did. I don´t see any difference between say "The Patriot" and Leni Riefenstahl´s "Triumf des Willens" (Das dokument vom Reichsparteitag 1934) or Tag der Freiheit - Unsere Wehrmacht (Nürnberg 1935) or Sergei Eisensteins "Oktyabr" (October, 1927) or "Bronenosets Potyomkin" (Battleship Potemkin, 1925)

I can tell you one MASSIVE difference between those films and the Patriot... the other movies weren't telling stories, they were portraying events. The Patriot is an entirely different sort of film, more about storytelling WITH propaganda rather than straightforward propaganda. Further, what makes Triumph of the Will disturbing (and boring beyond all belief) is the fact that it is a painstaking portrait of an actual event rather than just a mythologization. Potemkin and The Patriot never claimed to be true even if they have historical bases. Triumph of the Will is fact and should be pointed out as such. Further, the Patriot is NOT trying to sell a message of political conquest like Triumph of the Will. The Patriot is made WELL after the fact. Blame it for historical innaccuracy all you like, you CAN'T claim its pushing a modern day United States genocide. Don't take these movies so seriously, they're quite obviously fictions, not at ALL comparable with Documentary work.

[GePap]

Ancient era

By far the worst historical goofs are in movies about the ancient times. I guess most people here saw galdiator (which won best film!). Remember the opening battle scene? How much it looked like a firefight (i.e, modern war) when the romans unleash their balista? and then Roman infantry advance with spears drawn (where are the gladius?), adn even more, as auxiliaries of cavalry in the time of Marcus Aurelius? I mean, a total bastardisation of Roman military tactics at that time. And the rest of the movie gets no better.

Moves about egypt are usually crap, as are movies on the middle ages and renaissence. But since these factss are less accecible and less popular, no one cares. Still, its sad that basic education of most americans on the Roman system will be based more on galdiator than history...

[Urban Ranger]

Some posters think that it's impossible to blend factual accuracy in with "storytelling." I posit that it is a serious misconception.

Just because something is fiction - unless it's fantasy - doesn't mean it can ignore factual accuracy. Films are based on a concept called "suspension of disbelief." If films get their facts wrong it will just serve to weaken this "suspension of disbelief," particularly if these facts are fundamental to the genre.

This threshold is personal with some persons willing to ignore a lot of facts to be entertained.

It seems to me though that a good scriptwriter or director can weave entertainment and facts into a seamless whole. Of course that takes skill and talent.

[Hobbes]

I saw a show where it depicted the Americans liberating Amersterdam. Dammit, it was the Canadians!!!

[Lung]

The problem is in blurring the lines between fiction and non-fiction. When the premise of the film is history and fundamental changes to that history is made, fallacies are perpetuated. How's a pre-pubescent to know that the British did what was portrayed as being done by the Americans in U-571? Misleading historical movies combine with little teaching of history combine to produce myths.

This is reflected by americans who come onto Apolyton and elsewhere telling everyone that they saved our arses

BTW, i don't think Yanks are any more stupid than anywhere else. In fact, i think the filmmakers insult their audience by presuming them to be stupid in the first place.

As for suspending disbelief, a certain amount of accuracy is required even for fiction. Starship Troopers was difficult to enjoy when they traverse the galaxy to produce 20th century small arms!! What, not even a tank or two? No big mofo bombs to soften them up a bit first? It was the most absurd movie in my living memory

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Some posters think that it's impossible to blend factual accuracy in with "storytelling." I posit that it is a serious misconception.

Just because something is fiction - unless it's fantasy - doesn't mean it can ignore factual accuracy. Films are based on a concept called "suspension of disbelief." If films get their facts wrong it will just serve to weaken this "suspension of disbelief," particularly if these facts are fundamental to the genre.

This threshold is personal with some persons willing to ignore a lot of facts to be entertained.

It seems to me though that a good scriptwriter or director can weave entertainment and facts into a seamless whole. Of course that takes skill and talent.

I agree with you on that! Kind of goes with my earlier statement about how you can still entertain and be reasonably accurate.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Dissident
Yes I do believe americans are smart enough to realize that they aren't getting told the exact truth when they watch a fictional movie. Because american understand the meaning of the word fiction. They realize they are watching the movie for entertainment, not actual truth.

If movies are the only cultural reference then people could have a biased view of the world.

in 1992 we welcomed American students from a city near Philadelphia (I don't remember the name). They were learning french and have seen some old french film apparently. And many were quite suprised to see that we were wearing clothes somewhat like them (not old south-french clothes) and we have thing like TV, phone ...

The worse is cultural stereotype we can watch on some US movie. And those stereotype I can read them on this forum.

[Dis]

and Europeans don't have similar unreasonable stereotypes of americans?

not all of us are gun-toting bible thumpers (although I do own a gun ). I don't own a bible though

yet I hear this constantly from Europeans. So I really don't think it is reasonable to accuse americans of being the only people that stereotype people from around the world.

and not all of us ride around in big suv's either. many people enjoy driving small cars.

that is all.

[Drekkus]

Originally posted by Lung
The problem is in blurring the lines between fiction and non-fiction. When the premise of the film is history and fundamental changes to that history is made, fallacies are perpetuated. How's a pre-pubescent to know that the British did what was portrayed as being done by the Americans in U-571? Misleading historical movies combine with little teaching of history combine to produce myths.

This is reflected by americans who come onto Apolyton and elsewhere telling everyone that they saved our arses

BTW, i don't think Yanks are any more stupid than anywhere else. In fact, i think the filmmakers insult their audience by presuming them to be stupid in the first place.

As for suspending disbelief, a certain amount of accuracy is required even for fiction. Starship Troopers was difficult to enjoy when they traverse the galaxy to produce 20th century small arms!! What, not even a tank or two? No big mofo bombs to soften them up a bit first? It was the most absurd movie in my living memory

Starship Troopers was fantastic! It's a movie that shows the dangers of fascism. All the steel jaws and blue eyes, the gung ho retoric, the nazi like outfits, and still you feel for them in their fight against evil. It doesn't show you right and wrong, it leaves you without a clear conclusion. It's very over the top, but doesn't ridicule. That's why the general audience didn't like it.