When movies get facts wrong. . .

[Serb]

BTW Serb do you mind if I ask you something else? (Sorry I very rarely see Russians in the forum and I have a lot to ask )

Of course I don’t mind. I am by myself see Russians rarely on those forums.

During the NATO bombardement in Serbia did anything about the formation of the Orthodox Axis (union from Russia down to Greece) was discussed in Russia?

Yes, it was.
I’m still ashamed about those events.
Everybody in Russia felt the same. It was feeling that we betrayed our brothers, and it was talks about creation of such kind of alliance. In fact this alliance existed before collapse of SU. It was called Warsaw Pact, but when SU collapsed every member of this alliance was forced to stand alone against foreign aggression. We felt ashamed that our government denied to protect, to help Yugoslavia. And we still ashamed about this. Those event is one of shames part of our history.
P.S. I am not a worshiper of soviet system, but I think that secure system of that time is much better then no secure system at all. I’m absolutely sure that bombardment of Yugoslavia can not happen in times of WP.

[Bereta_Eder]

If Russia decided to stop NATO I can guarantee you that Greece would be with you! And not even western imposed dictatorhips would had stoped us this time.

There was also shame in Greece. Not so much shame (as we are a small country and cannot take on all of NATO...) but great anger against the west, both Europe and particularly USA.

Anger and humiliation.

Athens had to be made a police state when Clinton visited.
The phrase "butcher of the Balkans" was heard everywhere.

Mass demonstrations, aid to Serbia.

Some Greeks went to fight with the Serbs (and the government could not stop them, they were free citizens after all). But not many...
And of course we (unofficially ) broke every embargo against Serbia.

I think most Balkan countries (except... Albania ) would have joined Russia if it said "NO" to NATO. Many people wanted to.

Now the balkans are broken up in small states - all satelites of "bigger powers"... and Serbia, our ally since the new birth of Greece, is destroyed...

But it is amazing how fast people forget now...

But when the bombings against Serbia were taking place, it was another Greece...

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by Asher
I don't see it as propaganda. It's not pushing any sort of government policy in most cases.

Sometimes the most effective propaganda relies on the fact that it works very subtly. Karl Marx differentiated between the Repression State Apparatus (which consists of easily-visible methods of control such as tanks, guns, and soldiers) and the Ideological State Apparatus (which consists of media control and other oblique methods of instilling an ideology).

In the primary case, resistance is easy since the state apparatus is highly visible, but in the latter case, it is much more difficult to consciously organize a resistance (whether it's a personal decision to trust it less, or a community initiative to protest, etc). Ideological state apparatus, according to Marx, works best when it is least detectable.

Of course, I don't go so far as to condemn Hollywood films as being puppets of the state propagandists, although that is a possibility. I think it's far more probable that they're just naturally crap.

[Drekkus]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Most people like everything to neatly fall into their places, that guy is bad, he just killed people for fun, that guy is good, he tried to save those children, you see where I'm going? So, they clearly define who the bad guys and the good guys are, with hardly a plot twist thrown in.

I'm well aware of the fact that Hollywood's main concern is making money. A storyline where some americans, against all the terrible odds, overcome due to their superior wit and courage, is what draws the crowds. And offcourse I don't have to go see it.

It's just that the principle of blurring history and american fantasy is what keeps this viscious cycle going. Hollywood makers showing the crowd USA USA USA, and the crowd going USA USA USA because it says so on the screen.

[JohnT]

Re: When movies get facts wrong. . .

... I remember that I'm watching a movie.

Of course movies are going to get facts wrong - by the nature of the medium it is impossible (and would be boring as hell) if they had to get every little detail right.

To me, quibbling about the historical accuracy of a movie is kinda like Star Wars nerds arguing over the "correctness" of the various designs of the space ships.

Of course, the example given by Connorkimbro... well, that's just laziness and should've been picked up by somebody/somewhere along the moviemaking chain (screenwriter, director, actors, key grip, cinematographer, etc.) After all, it's not as if the actor spoke the lines alone, with no one around to hear him.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Drekkus
The main problem I have with historic inaccuracy in hollywood movies is that movies have far more impact on a generation than a 'boring' history book.

An example please? Name a movie from, say the 1930's-1950's where the movie's impact has so overwhelmed the national consciousness that it's view of events is now considered documented fact by my (or the Baby Boom) generation.

Thanks!

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by MacTBone
What about the accuracy of "Animal House"?

I was so annoyed that they used The Kingsmen's version of Louie Louie in a movie purportedly set in 1962, a year before it was recorded. Sure, it fits better with the frat-rock theme of the movie (in fact, it was the only frat-rock top-ten hit), but they could have used Richard Berry's or The Wailers' version!

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Many American movies are really pityfull. When we see scenes acting in France (generally Paris), they are at 99,99% wrong or out-dated !

French are all wearing with elegant but out-dated clothed. And the described relation-ship between American and French are biased (Godzilla is a perfect example of misconception or pure lies).

I can understand that a guy living in Texas don't care how are clothed or how speak a french. But a film-maker must be more interested in other culture if he want to make a somewhat realistic film.

In Example of Godzilla 'bad guy' are inversed : This no more the USA who create the monster, but the french. Now the victim in the USA !! Funny...

Since a decade, USA is always the victim of nasty or unconscious nations, aliens or meteor phenomenums ...

Eimrich movies are real bull****. A president piloting a F16 and blasting evil Aliens ? no probs ! An american genius making in few hours a computer virus on an unknowned alien network ? For sure !

Gibson movies sucks too : Good American vs Evil bastard english during the independence war ?

ikii ...

The problem is not that they are unrealistic, the problem is those movies don't respect people, historical facts and other cultures. It's why I think they are really bad.

Don't think that I'm a guy who spit automaticly on "USA" movies.
Quite the opposite, since many amercian movies are good or very good too. There is a lot of good movies (Good scenarii too, good picture and special effect), really good actors and savoir-faire.
American movies are very special and some french or european movies makers tried to do as the american ways, but many failed.

[Drekkus]

Originally posted by JohnT
An example please? Name a movie from, say the 1930's-1950's where the movie's impact has so overwhelmed the national consciousness that it's view of events is now considered documented fact by my (or the Baby Boom) generation.

Thanks!

Considering the fact that most US posters here are more historic consious than the average american:
How many times have american posters here in OT posted something along the lines of: We saved your asses in WWII when we came to your aid. Thereby denying the fact that until dec 7, 1941 the USA was more than willing to sit back, relax and sell weapons. Not until being attacked and Germany declaring war on the USA did the USA start a war effort. All the heroic war movies depicting the USA as the great liberator has put an image of noble americans coming to the free worlds aid, not of realpolitiker who tried at all cost to avoid being dragged into the war.

[Serb]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Alright, some of you are obviously missing out on the main prpose of a movie. It's there to entertain.

Let me introduce the one quote"
"The most important art for us is the cinema."
V.I. Lenin
Cinema was always the major propaganda tool.

What about the accuracy of "The Hunt For Red October"

This movie is the bull****.

What about the accuracy of "Forrest Gump"?

When I saw this movie I didn't thought that Americans is the greatest nation in the world. I thought that American’s director who shoot this movie was real genius, he make movie understandable for peoples of all kind of nationalities. This movie was about goodness and love, not about the Americans as the greatest nation in this world, but films like this is really rare. I respect people who created this film. I am only sad that such film is unique

What about the accuracy of "Animal House"?

Sorry I didn’t saw this film.

[Serb]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
Many American movies are really pityfull. When we see scenes acting in France (generally Paris), they are at 99,99% wrong or out-dated !
...French are all wearing with elegant but out-dated clothed. And the described relation-ship between American and French are biased (Godzilla is a perfect example of misconception or pure lies)

Perfect example.

The problem is not that they are unrealistic, the problem is those movies don't respect people, historical facts and other cultures. It's why I think they are really bad.

It is exactly what I’ve want to said.

[General Ludd]

Keep the fiction to the fictional movies. If they are going to base a film on a historic subject, it had better get all of the facts right. It's fine in sci-fi, fantasy or alternate history films (such as "Father Land") Just not in historic films.



That said, I no longer watch hollywood movies - historical innacuracies aside, the movies are all complete ****.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb

This movie is the bull****.

It is actually not. There was a Lithuanian sub driver in the soviet navy, Mr. Pleskys, who took his sub to the US, to the great detriment of his sisters (who stayed home in Vilnius) carreer as an actress (she's one good looking babe and a great actress, Eugenija Pleskyte) in the Soviet Union.

His (the HFRO sub driver's) name Marko Ramius, though, is Klingonese before it's Lithuanian, and Sean Connery could have as well mumbled Swahili while on the mast while leaving the port.

And the river in Vilnius does NOT look like in the closing scene.

[Serb]

What a bull****.

[DinoDoc]

I wonder if somepeople ever learned the difference between the words fiction and non-fiction. Could this recuurent debate merely be the result of a basic deficit in Serb's, etc. education?