Falling into place, is Iraq next?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Iraqi agents attempted to assasinate Mr. Bush while he was in Kuwait, but the plot was foiled.

What is assasinate? Turn him into an ass? Some say that´s what he is already.

If you mean assassinate: This has been proven by an independent court, right?

And even if it were so: The CIA certainly never tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein before 1993, right?

Americans.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
And even if it were so: The CIA certainly never tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein before 1993, right?

That's correct.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Our friendly Turkish allies forcibly suppress Kurdish culture. Not nice, but not genocide. LOTM

Forcibly suppressing a culture is the UN official definition of genocide. If you annoy me enough, I will find you a link.

Americans.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by faded glory



Na....not that bush would tell shroeder anyway?


I hear Bush is still "Considering" the matter on how to go about it (lots of domestic pressure to take out Saddam. Senators and public opinion).

Lots of good reasons for delay.

1. Afghan campaign not yet finished. Presents particular dilemma regarding Iran. We would like iranian help, or at least neutrality for campaign against Iraq (they host shiite opposition leaders). OTOH hand as long as Afghan unstable, they tend to intervene in Afghan politics and undermine Kharzai regime, requiring US pressure to keep Iran out. But this pressure strains budding US-Iran rapprochement. Ideally wait till after Kharzai govt is stronger, less tempting to Iran, then real US-Iran detente, prior to Iraqi campaign.
2. War on AL-qaeeda. Although i think a new regime in Iraq will be good for US in longer term, in Mid East, in short term may disrupt cooperation against Al-qaeeda. We want al-qaeeda even further on the ropes than they are now before going after Saddam.
3. Afgan campaign used up stocks of precison weapons.
Yup, we may actually be out of bombs. Need to rebuild stocks
4. Diplomatic campaign. It must be made clear to the world that Saddam has no intention of cooperating with weapons inspections, is in defiance of international law, and remains a threat to the region and the world. This will take time, further UN resolutions, etc.
5. Build up Iraqi opposition. To do this right we want a strong Iraqi opposition, as in Afghan. This is not to be a war on the Iraqi people, but US support for the Iraqi people in their revolution against a hated, oppressive regime - which means they must do a lot on their own, as they started to do in 1991. This can be done best by establishing strong contacts with Iraqi opposition elements, and by strengthening them in various ways. Ideally we will already have a blueprint for the future constititional shape of Iraq, the role of Kurds and Shiites, etc. This will go along way to assuaging Turkish and Saudi concerns.

For all these reasons i cant see a campaign against saddam before mid-summer, maybe even later.

LOTM

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
why shouldnt a communist like Saddam? After all the roots of Baathism are in european totalitarian politics, which owe so much to the ideas and practices articulated by Lenin. you are forgetting that Communism is not so much socialism as totalitarianism, as pointed by Hannah Arendt.

LOTM
Social Democratic Party of Apolyton

1 You read too much into my handle. I have no idea why a Communist should like Saddam. I suppose he wouldn´t.

2 Show me a quote of mine proving I like Saddam. I like the concept of state souvereignity taken seriously. Iraq is a souvereign state.

3 Baathism is quite an original invention (meaning Arab national 'rebirth'). It 'owes' a lot to British/American colonialism from what original Baathism (which has been around longer than Saddam Hussein) wanted to free the Arabs. A noble goal, in principle. Not that it has been realized very impressively.

4 Who or what was pointed by Hannah Arendt?

Americans. Hopeless.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Forcibly suppressing a culture is the UN official definition of genocide. If you annoy me enough, I will find you a link.

Americans.

My goodness - yes ive heard of "cultural genocide" - you honestly believe that "cultural genocide" is the equivalent of mass murder?
My great-grandfather was murdered by totalitarian Germans because of his ethnic-religious identity. I can assure you he would have been much better off if they had only suppressed his culture.

Totalitarian Germans
well no - actually

LOTM

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That's correct.

Sure. Did I mention we have some pink Elephants over here in the zoo of Vienna?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Sure. Did I mention we have some pink Elephants over here in the zoo of Vienna?

George Tenet in an internal briefing admited that the CIA "is depleted and ineffective", having lost the networks necessary to operate an efficent espionage system.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


What is assasinate? Turn him into an ass? Some say that´s what he is already.
[/QUOTE

Oh wow, youve found a typo. Congratulations.

[QUOTE]
If you mean assassinate: This has been proven by an independent court, right?
[/QUOTE

IIUC, this was established in Kuwaiti court, they had jurisdiction. Oh yeah, i Kuwait court wouldnt count of course.


[quote]
And even if it were so: The CIA certainly never tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein before 1993, right?

Americans. [/QUOTE

Not prior to his invasion of Kuwait certainly. while we were at war, certainly, but then we were at war. Afterwards, before '93, I doubt it.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


1 You read too much into my handle. I have no idea why a Communist should like Saddam. I suppose he wouldn´t.

2 Show me a quote of mine proving I like Saddam. I like the concept of state souvereignity taken seriously. Iraq is a souvereign state.

3 Baathism is quite an original invention (meaning Arab national 'rebirth'). It 'owes' a lot to British/American colonialism from what original Baathism (which has been around longer than Saddam Hussein) wanted to free the Arabs. A noble goal, in principle. Not that it has been realized very impressively.

4 Who or what was pointed by Hannah Arendt?

:

1. if someone claims to be a communist i take that seriously.

2. The concept of state sovereignty, and the obligation of states to respect other states was born at the treaty of westphalia in 1648, in reponse to problems of the the European system at the time. It is not an eternal moral principle of all time, nor is it an absolute in international law as that law has developed in the last hundred years. In fact prior to the league of nations, state sovereignty was effectively a right of great powers only, routinely violated in the case of smaller powers where higher international needs required it. (see "europe's classical balance of power") The league charter (and the UN) generalized the concept as a way of maintaining the peace, but both these documents placed there own limits on state sovereignty. This is not to argue for US hegemony, (which would be bad for the US) but it is to point out that state sovereignty is only one value, and can be reasonably opposed by others.

3. More on the history of baathism later

4. That totalitarianism is a broad phenomon, with essential charecteristics transcending its manifestations on the right and left.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
My goodness - yes ive heard of "cultural genocide" - you honestly believe that "cultural genocide" is the equivalent of mass murder?
My great-grandfather was murdered by totalitarian Germans because of his ethnic-religious identity. I can assure you he would have been much better off if they had only suppressed his culture.

Totalitarian Germans
well no - actually

LOTM

The Turks wiped out entire villages. The only question is if they killed just thousands, or rather tens of thousands.

But the question was if they committed genocide or not, and I see you concede that they did.

And the UN definition is International Law, and binding, regardless if you have 'heard about it', or not. There are a lot of things you haven´t heard about, I guess.

And what has the fact that your great-grandfather was murdered, and that I am supposedly German -which I am not, but Austrian-, to do with it? Sleazy tactics, I presume? Even if my great-grandfather had murdered your great-grandfather, which is pretty unlikely, I would still not see the connection.

(One of my great-grandfathers sank with an Austrian battleship in World War One, and that was really bad luck, because we had only one battleship. Even worse, the ship was sunk after the war was already over, by Italians who didn´t know that the war was over. This doesn´t give me a neurotic preoccupation with Italians, as you seem to have developed in regard to Germans. And no, I don´t have a neurotic preoccupation with Americans instead, it´s just that their combination of ignorance and aggressivity is scary, from a psychopathological viewpoint.)


Americans.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
George Tenet in an internal briefing admited that the CIA "is depleted and ineffective", having lost the networks necessary to operate an efficent espionage system.

This would be really good news, if it weren´t disinformation.

Nice try, still.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
This would be really good news, if it weren´t disinformation.

How is it disinformation when similar things are happening in Cuba, China, and in the ROW in general? As for the claim that it is actually a good thing, I'm not convinced because the trend has led to governments loosing contact with and control over the terrorist groups that the once nurtured, financed and directed which scares me.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
This is not to argue for US hegemony, (which would be bad for the US) but it is to point out that state sovereignty is only one value, and can be reasonably opposed by others.

It´s not a value at all; it´s the law.

If you say property is only one value, and can be reasonably opposed by others, this may sound reasonable enough, but if you draw my wallet, they will lock you up. I would sure wish for someone to lock up the US already. They deserve it.

4. That totalitarianism is a broad phenomon, with essential charecteristics transcending its manifestations on the right and left.

I know about Hannah Arendt. I was just pointing your grammar. Btw, 'totalitarianism' is a name-calling concept made up for the only purpose to equate everything you don´t like with Hitler. Btw, you are totalitarian.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How is it disinformation when similar things are happening in Cuba, China, and in the ROW in general?

I am not so sure they are happening? Cuba? Can´t afford much of a network to start with. China? I suppose they tightly control the few spies they have. Don´t think there are many over here, though. It is hard to pose as European, if you are Chinese. The rest of the world? The Germans are pretty efficient with most things; their secret service is probably nearly as scary as the CIA.