The Blind Atheist

[mactbone]

Let me put it to you this way, Omniscient means "knowing all". OK, if I know ALL, then obviously I would know everything that was, and everything that will be. So, if I know everything that will be, then it is already laid out, just waiting for the actors to take their places. So, there is no deviation, ther can BE no deviation. Therefore, a belief in Christianity and the Judeo-Christian God, implies a belief in pre-destination.

[Lars-E]

Knowing that you go to hell doesn't mean that God wants you to go to hell. Knowing and wanting are not the same.

I'm sure predestination is nice and comfy and suits the fancies of ppl. Just lay back and let anything happen cos you're a robot with no free will. The text has been given and you have to read it.

[mactbone]

I never said I believed in PD, I said that is basically what Christians believe in when they say they have an omniscient god. Actually, if god created each individual (which I know is not the view of all Christians by any means), and he is omniscient, then he created certain people to go to hell.

BTW, hell was a later creation, along with satan. Remeber, back in the ancient timess, most people couldn't concieve of an entirely evil entity. Consider Socrates, and his trial. He wonders why the Athenians think that he is corrupting the youth, because he would never do it knowingly, he knew that if he corrupted them, that they would beat him, etc. He doesn't understand why anyone would do evil, he says that people only do evil, because they are ignorant of whether it is right or worng. Obviously severely different from Judeo-Christian thought.

[Lars-E]

This doesn't change the fact that the church doesn't believe in it even though you feel they must due to an omniscient God.

[mactbone]

Which Church are you talking about, I thought the Catholic Church did? Maybe you could double check with a priest or pastor or whatever.

[Lars-E]

I'm not talking about a specific denomination. Overall.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Lars-E
You seem to know a bit about history and other subjects as well, but I think you would benefit from more knowledge of religion/christianity.

My knowledge of Psalms seems to need some work. But as for religion, I stopped learning after Deutoronomy.

Wonder why you left out a loving and holy God which are more dominating personality traits than those you mentioned

Only in your religion. Being Jewish, I have a much less touchy-feely God. And holiness is a trait which you have when you are near to God, not a trait of God.

Could you please write out this axiom? Is it an axiom?

The correct theory is the simplest one which fits all the facts.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Lars-E
Following ideas will do ziltz as far as salvation goes.

How does that relate to the idea of sola gracia? Are deeds of any use to get into Heaven? Does this vary from different forms of Christianity?

And MacT: just because God knows which decision you will make doesn't change at all the fact that the decision is yours. Free will and omniscience are not mutually exclusive.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Goingonit

My knowledge of Psalms seems to need some work. But as for religion, I stopped learning after Deutoronomy.


Only in your religion. Being Jewish, I have a much less touchy-feely God.

I don't think it's a matter of being touchy/feely.

Psalms is one of the books in the bible.

I think that the Jahve is the same God in Christianity and in Judentum. The OT is shared by both religions. The Jews seem to have add-ons though that they place great importance on. The Talmud?

What's with the orthodox tying little boxes with scriptures on themselves? The bible commands this, but it is a command to learn the Word and pass it on and not treat it in such a ridicuous manner.

And holiness is a trait which you have when you are near to God, not a trait of God.

Both:

Exodus 3:5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

Leviticus 11:44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.

Leviticus 11:45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: `Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.

You've read this so you should know.

The correct theory is the simplest one which fits all the facts.

Seems reasonable.

quote:

Originally posted by Lars-E
Following ideas will do ziltz as far as salvation goes.

How does that relate to the idea of sola gracia? Are deeds of any use to get into Heaven? Does this vary from different forms of Christianity?

Salvation isn't just an idea. It's a reality that you need to experience.

Romans 3:9 -
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,
10
as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11
no one understands, no one seeks for God.
12
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
13
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15
"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16
in their paths are ruin and misery,
17
and the way of peace they do not know."
18
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
20
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it,
22
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23
since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24
they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
25
whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
26
it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
27
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
28
For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
29
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30
since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

By having the Spirit on the inside God actually fulfills the law thru us. No man can live perfectly by the law. Only God can and thus we need Him to be our substitute.

Deeds will follow naturally from a saved person because God lives on the inside by the Spirit and works in us and thru us:

James 1:22-
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

2:14-
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now to really grasp all this one needs God on the inside - the author. Jesus told Nicodemus that outsiders cannot see the Kingdom of God. They're blind to it. That's why many think christianity is foolishness. Cos they don't understand it or how it could be applicable to them. Also the part that God died can be a challenge for some.

I don't think that there's much dispute about the relationship between saving faith and works in Christendom. Luther though had a revelation on Romans 4 and 'saved only by grace' concept. This is good and sound theology, but he put so much emphasis on this that he wanted to root out the book of James from the bible. James talks about works.

Romans 4:1-
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Salvation comes thru faith. Only saved ppl go to heaven. Ppl who act on the following verses are saved:

Acts 4:10 -
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hope this is helpful. Are the inversed texts (scriptures) difficult to read? I might need to cut down pasting verses from Bible Gateway.

[Guynemer]

Dammit Lars!

Well you brought it upon yourself. And now, Act II of "Hamlet", by William Shakespeare. (Abridged. Very abridged.)

Brevity is the soul of wit. --II, ii, 90.
To define true madness,
What is't but to be nothing but mad? --II, ii, 93.
More matter with less art. --II, ii, 95. (This quote is particularly applicable, since all this Bible nonsense has completely threadjacked a most interesting and literate thread about the scientific evidence of evolution.)
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't. --II, ii, 211.
There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. --II, ii, 259.
What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action how like an angel! In apprehension, how like a god! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me. --II, ii, 323. (My personal favorite.)
I am but mad north-north-west; when the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw. --II, ii, 405.
O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I. --II, ii, 584.
The play's the thing
Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king. --II, ii, 641.


Care to push your luck? I'm just getting warmed up. Hell, no one has even been killed in the play yet; the good stuff is yet to come.

Back to evolution! (Please?)

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Dammit Lars!
Back to evolution! (Please?)

No more Hamlet it's killing me!

Yeah go back to evolving.

[Goingonit]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Lars-E


I don't think it's a matter of being touchy/feely.

Psalms is one of the books in the bible.

I think that the Jahve is the same God in Christianity and in Judentum. The OT is shared by both religions. The Jews seem to have add-ons though that they place great importance on. The Talmud?

What's with the orthodox tying little boxes with scriptures on themselves? The bible commands this, but it is a command to learn the Word and pass it on and not treat it in such a ridicuous manner.

It says in my translation: "bind them [these words] as a sign upon your hand and let them serve as a symbol of your forehead." If you treat the Bible as proof of creation, certainly this means what it says!

As for the holy stuff: the Lord is holy, but not in the same way. I was really talking more about righeousness. Holiness is intrinsic to being God. And God loves His people Israel, but he is quite ready to kill members of His people at a moment's notice. When Christions would call Him loving, quite often Jews would call Him merciful.

[Lars-E]

It says in my translation: "bind them [these words] as a sign upon your hand and let them serve as a symbol of your forehead." If you treat the Bible as proof of creation, certainly this means what it says!

It's dumb IMO to interpret that passage literally. What purpose would it possibly serve going around with cute little black boxes on you? Reminding ppl of the Word of God? Well, ok...still looks funny though.

Forehead and hand - think about that - what could it mean? For example: You use your head to think - think about the Word - meditate on it. Hand: Let your actions be colored by the Word. Don't let your hand lead you into sin.

An interpretation like I made makes sense. Looking ridiculous walking around with boxes on you and thinking it's God's will for some stupid perverted reason is IMO stupid and mocking God.

As for the holy stuff: the Lord is holy, but not in the same way. I was really talking more about righeousness. Holiness is intrinsic to being God.

Whatever.

And God loves His people Israel, but he is quite ready to kill members of His people at a moment's notice. When Christions would call Him loving, quite often Jews would call Him merciful.

I don't think God is that triggerhappy.

Christians call God both loving and merciful. There are many attributes to the eternal living God.

God loves his ppl. And who are they? God's ppl are the ppl who believe and have fellowship with Him. Like Abraham, David, Jabes, Gideon. Israel is a symbol of the redeemed church. God's ppl have always been believers. God has never had a ppl thet were not his friends, coworkers, saved believers. Thus Israel is not God's ppl, but the church is. Saying this the Gentiles are like wild branches that have been inserted to the Mother tree - Jesus Christ. The Jews belong there naturally. For a Jew to become Christian would be like coming home and he would really feel he belonged there. It would feel natural.

[Goingonit]

Christians call God both loving and merciful. There are many attributes to the eternal living God.

13, in fact, according to Maimonides.

God loves his ppl. And who are they? God's ppl are the ppl who believe and have fellowship with Him. Like Abraham, David, Jabes, Gideon.

He made Abraham almost sacrifice his son. He wouldn't let Moses into Eretz Israel. He was pretty damn mean to Job, too.

For a Jew to become Christian would be like coming home and he would really feel he belonged there. It would feel natural.

This is why I am Jewish. I can't stand people who try to convert me. Jews don't try to convert anyone.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Goingonit
He made Abraham almost sacrifice his son.

No.

God stopped Abraham. He never intended Abraham to kill Isaac. Anyways Abe believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead (Jesus-parallell):

Hebrews 11:11-
By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.
12
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
14
People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15
If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
16
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,
18
even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
19
Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

God had promised Abraham descendants thru Isaac. God would break his promise if he let Abe kill the boy. God also provided a real sacrifice - a ram that was stuck in some bushes nearby.

He wouldn't let Moses into Eretz Israel.

Disobediance is very bad:

1 Samuel 15:22-
But Samuel replied, "What is more pleasing to the LORD: your burnt offerings and sacrifices or your obedience to his voice? Obedience is far better than sacrifice. Listening to him is much better than offering the fat of rams.
23
Rebellion is as bad as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as bad as worshiping idols. So because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you from being king."

Moses didn't enter the promised land due to disobediance which again was provoked by the stubborness and disgruntling of the ppl of God:

Numbers 20:7 -
and the LORD said to Moses,
8
"Take the rod, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water; so you shall bring water out of the rock for them; so you shall give drink to the congregation and their cattle."
9
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
10
And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?"
11
And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his rod twice; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their cattle.
12
And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."
13
These are the waters of Mer'ibah, where the people of Israel contended with the LORD, and he showed himself holy among them.

Psalm 106:33
for they made his spirit bitter, and he spoke words that were rash.

Deuteronomy 1:37
The LORD was angry with me also on your account, and said, 'You also shall not go in there;

He was pretty damn mean to Job, too.

No, but the devil was.

Job feared accidents. Fear coses bad things to happen. Job was almost perfect, but the fear factor was a dint in his shining armor:

Job 1:1
There was a man named Job who lived in the land of Uz. He was blameless, a man of complete integrity. He feared God and stayed away from evil.
4
Every year when Job's sons had birthdays, they invited their brothers and sisters to join them for a celebration. On these occasions they would get together to eat and drink.
5
When these celebrations ended--and sometimes they lasted several days--Job would purify his children. He would get up early in the morning and offer a burnt offering for each of them. For Job said to himself, "Perhaps my children have sinned and have cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular practice.

This was Job's regular practice.

Fear was an integral part of Job's character, unfortunately.

The devil was mean to Job:

6
One day the angels[1] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan the Accuser came with them.
7
"Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan.
And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on."
8
Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."
9
Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason!
10You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is!
11
But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
12
"All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

After a while Satan harmed Job physically too:

Job 2:1-
One day the angels[1] came again to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan the Accuser came with them.
2
"Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan.
And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on."
3
Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you persuaded me to harm him without cause."
4
Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin--he blesses you only because you bless him. A man will give up everything he has to save his life.
5
But take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
6
"All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."
7
So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with a terrible case of boils from head to foot.

Now many think God did all this when the scriptures in fact state that the devil was reponsible. Job's wife was one of those with a picture of God as angry and disease-inflicting. Even Job had the wrong idea!

Job2:8-
Then Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes.
9
His wife said to him, "Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die."
10
But Job replied, "You talk like a godless woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?" So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.

For a Jew to become Christian would be like coming home and he would really feel he belonged there. It would feel natural.

This is why I am Jewish. I can't stand people who try to convert me.

Crock. It's a christians duty to evangelize. Have you heard of the Great Comission?

Matt 28:18-
Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth.
19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Howewer I meant not to evangelize you. If you'd read the NT you'd know that the first section (my part) in your above quote is paraphrased from Romans 10:17:

But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree.

This is from the bible so blame God not me. I was not trying to convert you. You're a bit sensitive. You might wanna read verse 17 in its context:

Romans 11:1-
I ask, then, has God rejected his people, the Jews? Of course not! Remember that I myself am a Jew, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,
3
"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I alone am left, and now they are trying to kill me, too."[1]
4
And do you remember God's reply? He said, "You are not the only one left. I have seven thousand others who have never bowed down to Baal!"[2]
5
It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few[3] are being saved as a result of God's kindness in choosing them.
6
And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.
7
So this is the situation: Most of the Jews have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the rest were made unresponsive.
8
As the Scriptures say,

"God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this very day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear."[4]
9
David spoke of this same thing when he said,

"Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble.
10
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs grow weaker and weaker."[5]
11
Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! His purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves.
12
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it.
13
I am saying all of this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I lay great stress on this,
14
for I want to find a way to make the Jews want what you Gentiles have, and in that way I might save some of them.
15
For since the Jews' rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, how much more wonderful their acceptance will be. It will be life for those who were dead!
16
And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their children will also be holy.[6] For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
17
But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree.
18
But you must be careful not to brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. Remember, you are just a branch, not the root.
19
"Well," you may say, "those branches were broken off to make room for me."
20
Yes, but remember--those branches, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God, and you are there because you do believe. Don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
21
For if God did not spare the branches he put there in the first place, he won't spare you either.
22
Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe to those who disobeyed, but kind to you as you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
23
And if the Jews turn from their unbelief, God will graft them back into the tree again. He has the power to do it.
24
For if God was willing to take you who were, by nature, branches from a wild olive tree and graft you into his own good tree--a very unusual thing to do--he will be far more eager to graft the Jews back into the tree where they belong.
25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,[7] so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
26
And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this?

"A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem,[8]
and he will turn Israel[9] from all ungodliness.
27
And then I will keep my covenant with them
and take away their sins."[10]
28
Many of the Jews are now enemies of the Good News. But this has been to your benefit, for God has given his gifts to you Gentiles. Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
29
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
30
Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead.
31
And now, in the same way, the Jews are the rebels, and God's mercy has come to you. But someday they,[11] too, will share in God's mercy.
32
For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
33
Oh, what a wonderful God we have! How great are his riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his methods!
34
For who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who knows enough to be his counselor?[12]
35
And who could ever give him so much that he would have to pay it back?
36
For everything comes from him; everything exists by his power and is intended for his glory. To him be glory evermore. Amen.

[1] 1:3 1 Kgs 19:10, 14.
[2] 11:4 1 Kgs 19:18.
[3] 11:5 Greek A remnant.
[4] 11:8 Deut 29:4; Isa 29:10.
[5] 11:9-10 Ps 69:22-23.
[6] 11:16 Greek If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump.
[7] 11:25 Greek brothers.
[8] 11:26a Greek from Zion.
[9] 11:26b Greek Jacob.
[10] 11:26-27 Isa 59:20-21.
[11] 11:31 Some manuscripts read But now they; other
manuscripts read But they.
[12] 11:34 See Isa 40:13.

Jews don't try to convert anyone.

Well that's partly how Israel lost the blessing of God. You wanted to keep all the blessings and the covenant to yourself. And not give which is a fundamental attribute to God:

He gave his only Son remember.

Give and you shall receive. The Golden rule. See the last bold verse. The ones inbetween are related.

Matthew 5:42 Matthew 5 Matthew 5:41-43 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

Matthew 6:12 Matthew 6 Matthew 6:11-13 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;

Matthew 7:7 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:6-8 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matthew 7:9 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:8-10 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?

Matthew 7:10 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:9-11 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?

Matthew 7:11 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:10-12 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 9:6 Matthew 9 Matthew 9:5-7 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, take up your bed and go home."

Matthew 9:8 Matthew 9 Matthew 9:7-9 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Matthew 10:8 Matthew 10 Matthew 10:7-9 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.

Matthew 10:42 Matthew 10 Matthew 10:41-43 And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

Matthew 13:11 Matthew 13 Matthew 13:10-12 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Matthew 16:19 Matthew 16 Matthew 16:18-20 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 20:28 Matthew 20 Matthew 20:27-29 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Matthew 21:43 Matthew 21 Matthew 21:42-44 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

Matthew 24:45 Matthew 24 Matthew 24:44-46 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

Matthew 25:29 Matthew 25 Matthew 25:28-30 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Matthew 25:37 Matthew 25 Matthew 25:36-38 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

Matthew 28:18 Matthew 28 Matthew 28:17-19 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Mark 8:37 Mark 8 Mark 8:36-38 For what can a man give in return for his life?

Matthew 10:40 Matthew 10 Matthew 10:39-41 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.

Mark 6:11 Mark 6 Mark 6:10-12 And if any place will not receive you and they refuse to hear you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet for a testimony against them."

Mark 10:15 Mark 10 Mark 10:14-16 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

Luke 10
9
heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10
But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11
'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'

Luke 18
29
And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30
who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."
31
And taking the twelve, he said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written of the Son of man by the prophets will be accomplished.

Mark 4:24 Mark 4 Mark 4:23-25 And he said to them, "Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you.

As I've said I haven't tried to convert you. I'm only answering your questions.

BTW, if you're so angry/afraid of God and think He's out to get ya, why do you insist on believing / calling yourself Jewish in the religious sense?

And you might wanna get a bible instead of using me as one.