The Blind Atheist

[Anodyne]

Jack> Yeah, you're right about the God in the Old Testament. In the OT, God was ambivalent, responsible of both, good and evil, before the concept of some evil counter-god, Satan in this case... who appears first in the book of Job, if I remember correctly.

And the thing why I don't take Bible so seriously is that it was written by people, not God, as many people seem to believe. People do mistakes (that can obviously be seen very clearly in the bible) I, for one, am a religious nihilist (if that's a right word for it...). It basically means that the existence or nonexistence of God really doesn't matter for me. World wouldn't be any different, be it with or without Him. But I do find the New Testament, especially Jesus and his moral doctrine (corrupted by most of the modern christians, though) very interesting.

Well, the first chapter was really my point, the second was just some of my own opinions.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Well, what's so great about being a "lowly sinner deserving of death"?

Must feel bad, huh, you oughta know being a non-christian. A Christian is not a "lowly sinner deserving of death". It's unbiblical and unlogical. It's the description of ppl without God. Christians are described as holy and righteous .

...And, probably, some Christian will infer from that remark that I don't want to be "bound by the law". But, as the saying goes, "the law is for the instruction of fools and the guidance of wise men". I am genuinely unable to see why people prefer to blindly follow the myths of others, especially when those myths seem so obviously designed to compel obedience to the priesthood.

Other wrong conceptions. You're full of them. Christians follow the Spirit, not the law by the letters.

This is not about blindly following myths. It's a about a personal relationship with God who speaks to you and gives you all kinds of advantages. To miss out on something like that is stupid.

If I had your conceptions of Christianity I wouldn't like it either.

How come when something gets really old it automatically turns into a myth? Early evolution is an exception. Of course.

Obediance to the priesthood? Sorry for saying this, but this shows your ignorance again. Have you heard about the common priesthood? All christians are priests:

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

For instance, consider conversion after death. It seems reasonable to assume that if there's an afterlife, an atheist ought to be able to say to God "Whoops, I was wrong, sorry about the misunderstanding". And if God is basically a nice guy, he'd say "No problem, kid, come on up". But this is heresy to many Christians, who insist that I must accept Christianity while alive or face eternal banishment (or worse).

What you think is totally irellevant and just to think it is, is lacking in logic. A honest person would care about the opnion of God, not his own. If he was unsure of it on a certain matter that mattered a great deal to him he would try to find out. Not settle for less and try to be superior to God saying that your own thoughts will be more intelligent than His.

As for after-death conversions it seems that if a person won't believe in this life than it's too late. How you feel about this is irellevant. What God says about it matters, not your own opinions. God rules according to his thoughts, not yours for crying out loud!

Here's a passage where a man complains about this:

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' "But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

And if you don't like His thoughts and wanna change them it's not gonna happen!

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever.

The best thing is to bow knee to a superior being and acknowledge that He knows best. It's best for you. And you'll have to in the end anyways. Then it won't be a matter of choice.

Some scriputures that compare God's thought with natural human thought below. And why it's wiser to acknowledge that an omniscient God knows best. It should be unnecessary to argue this BTW. An omniscient God knows best. And the natural and logical response would be to acknowlege that.

Proverbs 10:20b the mind of the wicked is of little worth.

Isaiah 55:8-9: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Micah 4:12 But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD; they do not understand his plan, he who gathers them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

Proverbs 15:26 The LORD detests the thoughts of the wicked, but those of the pure are pleasing to him.

Psalm 94:11 The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.

Psalm 10:4 In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

1 Corinthians 3:20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Romans 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools

1 Corinthians 1:18 1 Corinthians 1 1 Corinthians 1:17-19 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

You make your own belief system outta what you think and feel is reasonable today. Tomorrow your religion is different and shaped by the circumstances. This is how most ppl approach religion. It's man-made which is a really dumb approach because it excludes the intervention of a possible God. What's important is how God sees things and not the average Schmo.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
The Wrath of God is uncontrolled: it will kill anyone who encounters it, regardless of their motives. If you try to stop some oxen toppling the Ark of the Covenant, you will DIE. God is basically a seething bundle of hatred, as befits his origin as a god of storms and war.

The notion of a "benevolent" God is a MUCH later invention.

Nonsense again I'm sorry to say. The ark is the symbol of God's presence. No sinner can enter it and no sinner can enter heaven. Because God is a consuming fire and can not tolerate sin in his presence. Thus a non-christian who has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ cannot enter heaven.

The notion of a benevolent God is not a later invention. Try read about the exodus and how God took care of his ppl Israel. Israel is a symbol of the church. Read about David and his relationship with God. And Solomon. And Job. And Jabes. And and and.

You're showing ignorance and if you do not know the bible it would be best for you to keep quiet instead of opening your "mouth" showing your foolishness. I have refuted you several times when it comes to your standard average misconceptions about christianity, God, christians and the Bible.

Take a vacation and read the bible a few times thru. Hopefully you'll dig into it instead of a superficial skim which is how most ppl read it. Thus they miss out and get weird ideas. What is really stupid is when socalled "heathens" find diffcult passages. They do not bother going into the basic text, in Hebrew, Arameic or Greek. Why? The truth hurts.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Must feel bad, huh, you oughta know being a non-christian. A Christian is not a "lowly sinner deserving of death". It's unbiblical and unlogical. It's the description of ppl without God. Christians are described as holy and righteous.

I was merely quoting a phrase that I've seen some Christians use to describe everybody, including themselves.

How come when something gets really old it automatically turns into a myth? Early evolution is an exception. Of course.

Evolution is supported by the evidence, creationism (and hence "Biblical inerrancy") is contradicted by the evidence.

Obediance to the priesthood? Sorry for saying this, but this shows your ignorance again. Have you heard about the common priesthood? All christians are priests:

They're still required to accept the "party line".

As for after-death conversions it seems that if a person won't believe in this life than it's too late. How you feel about this is irellevant. What God says about it matters, not your own opinions. God rules according to his thoughts, not yours for crying out loud!

Thank you for proving my point. How do you know what God's actual attidute towards after-death conversion is? WHY is it too late? God rules according to the priesthood's thoughts, not yours for crying out loud!

Interesting that you (or rather the priesthood) choose to compare an atheist to "a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen", whereas a Christian is a virtuous beggar. The implication is that the atheist has something desirable which the Christian must convince himself is worthless. Independence, maybe?

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever.

The best thing is to bow knee to a superior being and acknowledge that He knows best. It's best for you. And you'll have to in the end anyways. Then it won't be a matter of choice.

But I don't believe that your God exists. So why are you quoting Bible verses to convince me? Can't you see how that looks to someone who considers the Bible to be a fiction devised by human priests? Can you not think independently of what the Bible says?

Nonsense again I'm sorry to say. The ark is the symbol of God's presence. No sinner can enter it and no sinner can enter heaven. Because God is a consuming fire and can not tolerate sin in his presence. Thus a non-christian who has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ cannot enter heaven.

Uzzah wasn't a "sinner", he was a loyal servant of God trying to do the right thing. Unless you're now saying that all men are "lowly sinners deserving of death"? I thought you'd got over that? And couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent God foresee and prevent this accident? The Biblical God didn't have these attributes: another later addition.

The notion of a benevolent God is not a later invention. Try read about the exodus and how God took care of his ppl Israel. Israel is a symbol of the church. Read about David and his relationship with God. And Solomon. And Job. And Jabes. And and and.

There are many horrible deeds attributed to God in Exodus, God killed David's totally innocent child, he had some major diagreements with Solomon, he tormented Job for no reason, etc etc etc.

You're showing ignorance and if you do not know the bible it would be best for you to keep quiet instead of opening your "mouth" showing your foolishness. I have refuted you several times when it comes to your standard average misconceptions about christianity, God, christians and the Bible.

Denied, not refuted. If you actually READ the Bible and see what it plainly says, rather than trying to pretend that God is "benevolent", then maybe you will see the horror of what it endorses: genocide, savage injustice, the punishment of innocents, human sacrifices. But the truth hurts.

[Jack the Bodiless]

What is really stupid is when socalled "heathens" find diffcult passages. They do not bother going into the basic text, in Hebrew, Arameic or Greek.

Nope, I don't know those languages. But if you're going to blame all of the Bible's atrocities on "mistranslation", then I'd be fascinated to hear how the Hebrew equivalent of "we knocked politely on their doors and handed out pamphlets explaining our religion" got mistranslated as "we slaughtered all the men, kids and married women and carried off their virgins".

Maybe you'd like to take a long look at the SAB's list of Biblical Cruelty and Violence and explain all those truly awesome "translation errors" which unaccountably made it into the most famous of all English translations of the Bible, the King James Version.

...Though maybe you should report back on a new thread, as I've just realized that I am in mortal danger of incurring the Wrath of the Moderators, this thread has veered a long way off the original topic.

[mactbone]

I would like to point out that if God is Omniscient, then everything is pre-destined. if everything is pre-destined, then we are all either saved or not. So... what's the point in striving for salvation?

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
They're still required to accept the "party line".

What's the party line?

Thank you for proving my point. How do you know what God's actual attidute towards after-death conversion is? WHY is it too late? God rules according to the priesthood's thoughts, not yours for crying out loud!

Proving which point?

God rules according to the priesthood's thoughts?? What the heck do you mean? God rules according to his own rules.

How I know about God's attitudes towards after-death conversion? Why is it too late? He said so. And it's all written down. As a christian I also have the author on the inside.

Interesting that you (or rather the priesthood) choose to compare an atheist to "a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen", whereas a Christian is a virtuous beggar. The implication is that the atheist has something desirable which the Christian must convince himself is worthless. Independence, maybe?

This was the only passage I could find which adressed your question about after-death conversion. Maybe there are better examples. I was not comparing atheists to the rich man. It would be more scriptural to compare a rich man to a christian:

Deuteronomy 8:16-18 He gave you manna to eat in the desert, something your fathers had never known, to humble and to test you so that in the end it might go well with you.

You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me."

But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

It's in fact part of the covenant between God and man to make you rich.

Independence? So you're independent? Who gave you that idea?

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1 John 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

2 Timothy 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

1 John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil,...

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But I don't believe that your God exists. So why are you quoting Bible verses to convince me? Can't you see how that looks to someone who considers the Bible to be a fiction devised by human priests? Can you not think independently of what the Bible says?

You raise biblical issues and expect not to receive biblical answers. I am answering you in the same fashion and on the same topics you raise.

The story about the man and his brothers - in a previous post -wouldn't believe scriptures either. The referral to Moses and the prophets is a referral to the scriptures. So you have the bible, but refuse to believe. Even if someone rose from the dead and tried to convince you of hell you wouldn't believe it. Am I right? This was at least the position of the man and his brothers.

Uzzah wasn't a "sinner", he was a loyal servant of God trying to do the right thing. Unless you're now saying that all men are "lowly sinners deserving of death"? I thought you'd got over that? And couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent God foresee and prevent this accident?

He sinned. Period. As I stated earlier christians are not sinners. Some believe that, but they have no biblical foundation for it. This doesn't mean that a christian cannot sin. He just doesn't live in it.

God foresaw the fall of man. That's why the lamb was slaughtered from the creation of the earth (Rev 13:8). Apparently the concept of free will is important to God, thus he let's man choose for himself to serve or not. You should like that since you place importance on independence.

The Biblical God didn't have these attributes: another later addition.

Are you saying even after the NT? Anyways I came up with examples that he in fact has had the same attributes all along. You came up with: No.

There are many horrible deeds attributed to God in Exodus, God killed David's totally innocent child, he had some major diagreements with Solomon, he tormented Job for no reason, etc etc etc.

No.

This is one of the texts you're reffering to:
2 Samuel 12: 9-14
Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites.

Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'

"This is what the LORD says: `Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.'"

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.

But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."

As another scripture states "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). The terrible thing here is that one persons sin can effect others. If one man kills another the murdered is certainly affected.

Solomon had a disagreement with God in his late life not the other way around. Because Solomon disregarded "the law of kings" which said to take few wives and only Israelites, he violated the law of God. Thus he set a trap for himself and was lured into idolatry by foreign wives. This way he alienated hilmself from God and could only blame himself.

Don't forget his former years when he prospered being the wealthiest and wisest man on earth due to a prayer request. God answered the prayer and blessed him.

The point is if you set yourself outside the protection of God bad things can happen. You're at risk.

As you said in an earlier post God is a jealous God. Passionate love is dangerous. This guy even died for you when you were an enemy to him! If you do not return his passionate love he will destroy you. You can see examples of such among humans too.

Denied, not refuted. If you actually READ the Bible and see what it plainly says, rather than trying to pretend that God is "benevolent", then maybe you will see the horror of what it endorses: genocide, savage injustice, the punishment of innocents, human sacrifices. But the truth hurts.

I've read the OT 7 times and the NT 9-10 times plus I read certain parts every day. I study theology too - reading books. (And I went to bible school for 1 year.)

God sacrificed himself voluntarily so that you could have intimate fellowships with him. What's so terrible about that?

But if you're going to blame all of the Bible's atrocities on "mistranslation", then I'd be fascinated to hear how the Hebrew equivalent of "we knocked politely on their doors and handed out pamphlets explaining our religion" got mistranslated as "we slaughtered all the men, kids and married women and carried off their virgins".

Not mainly mistranslations, just different conceptions on christianity.

As far as mistranslations go ppl seem to want to read into the bible their views. And if they're negative to start with you get the picture. Some ppl want their own views reinforced to feel secure and not change. Resistance against change is a major problem for ppl and organizations. It's a topic of it's own in orginizational psychology.

I consider myself a classic mainstream christian yet your views on christianity are far from mine. Either my views are farfetched or you have misconceptions like many do. As I said earlier if I had your views on christianity I wouldn't like it either .

As for the carrying off of virgins could you give me the scriptural reference please. Save me work.

Maybe you'd like to take a long look at the SAB's list of Biblical Cruelty and Violence and explain all those truly awesome "translation errors" which unaccountably made it into the most famous of all English translations of the Bible, the King James Version.

I could look at it yes. I've probably read it before. I've read books that raises these issues and books that answer them. Probably nothing new here. Remember the theologians have heard it all before and there are sites on the net that answer these issues if you really want know.

I would like to point out that if God is Omniscient, then everything is pre-destined. if everything is pre-destined, then we are all either saved or not. So... what's the point in striving for salvation?

God being all knowing means he knows how ppl will respond to the gospel. That doesn't mean he wants certain ppl to perish. God wants all men to repent, in fact he commands it.

1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Just an add-on:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Like I've indicated some ppl are not interested in truth. They just want to live their own egotistical lives and use others. If someone confronts them with the truth of their situation they are uncomfortable and get defensive and try to 'escape' and come up with all sorts of stuff that defends them. No one likes to be uncomfortable. The sad thing is that this state of being uncomfortable doesn't lead to progress or change of heart just reinforcement of their own ways and denial.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Nope, I don't know those languages.

You don't need to know Hebrew or Greek. There are dictionaries that explain what biblical words in these languages mean. Hebrew is a rich language and one Hebrew word can mean different things in English. Thus the making of the Amplified Bible which try to get all the meanings of the Hebrew text in English. Very helpful edition.

[Guynemer]

A little more than kin, and less than kind. --I, ii, 65.
Seems, madam! Nay, it is; I know not 'seems'. --I, ii, 76.
But I have that within which passeth show; These but the trappings and the suits of woe. --I, ii, 85.
O! that this too too solid flesh would melt, thaw, and resolve itself into a dew. --I, ii, 129.
How weary, stale, flat, and unprofitable
Seem to me all the uses of this world.
Fie on't! O fie! 'tis an unweeded garden,
That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
Possess it merely. --I, ii, 133.
Frailty, thy name is woman! --I, ii, 146.
He was a man, take him for all in all,
I shall not look upon his like again. --I, ii, 187.
The apparel oft proclaims the man. --I, iii, 72.
Neither a borrower, nor a lender be. --I, iii, 73.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man. --I, iii, 76.
Murder most foul, as in the best it is. --I, v, 27.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --I, v, 166.
The time is out of joint: O cursed spite,
That ever I was born to set it right. --I, v, 188.


Why?

#1--I felt the need for the #2 most quoted work in the English language ("Hamlet") to keep pace with the #1 most quoted work (The Bible).

#2--These quotes are no less applicable to the original debate over evolution than the myriad Biblical quotes already offered. (Meaning: they're both worthless.)

#3--These quotes are, aesthetically speaking, one helluva lot better than all the Bible quotes.

Let this be a lesson. I've got four more acts, and I'm not afraid to use them!

[Jon Miller]

I have a chrisitan freind who beleives in conversion after death

in fact, I beleive that he beleives that all will be converted

I, disagree with him

I beleive he is a presberterian (even though I beleive that his beleifs are not the usual in that denomination)

Jon Miller

[ZoboZeWarrior]

If you follow the ideas Jesus exposed in his story about the Samaritan, if you are good and fair, christian or not you will be accepted in Heaven.

If you said that you are a God follower but you are unfair and not genereous, Heaven will not open its doors for you, for sure !

All personn can be Christian if they really and trustfully want it, dead or alive.

Of course if somebody want to be christian only to escape hell, it will not work.

The rite of purification his symbolic, no need of Jesus blood for it. Bull****.

Clean water and true feeling are only mandatory.

[lightblue]

I started reading again, but once the bible verses started...
.

[mactbone]

God foresaw the fall of man. That's why the lamb was slaughtered from the creation of the earth (Rev 13:8). Apparently the concept of free will is important to God, thus he let's man choose for himself to serve or not. You should like that since you place importance on independence.

First, I recommend you read up on St. Augustine of Hippo. He converted to Christianity later in his life, and was a platonist at one point. He is the one that raises this question, and the Church recognizes it as fact. Everything is pre-destined. If you believe in the Judeo-Christian, omniscient God, you believe in pre-destination. The only way anyone can be prescient, is if they know everything that will happen. If they know everything that will happen, then there is no way to change what will happen. Therefore, since everything is pre-destined, and God knows it, I am either saved or not saved, and there's nothing I can do to change the outcome.

[Jack the Bodiless]

God rules according to the priesthood's thoughts?? What the heck do you mean? God rules according to his own rules.

How I know about God's attitudes towards after-death conversion? Why is it too late? He said so. And it's all written down.

Um... according to the priesthood, the Bible is the Word of God. But it isn't. It's the Word of the Priesthood.

As a christian I also have the author on the inside.

So what were God's exact words to you in which he explained the setup in detail? Let me guess: you have a "feeling", right?

The story about the man and his brothers - in a previous post -wouldn't believe scriptures either. The referral to Moses and the prophets is a referral to the scriptures. So you have the bible, but refuse to believe. Even if someone rose from the dead and tried to convince you of hell you wouldn't believe it. Am I right? This was at least the position of the man and his brothers.

According to the Bible. Talk about circular reasoning!

The Biblical God didn't have these attributes: another later addition.

Are you saying even after the NT? Anyways I came up with examples that he in fact has had the same attributes all along. You came up with: No.

If you want specific examples of the Biblical God's lack of the "omni" attributes, there are plenty of them. God is described in the Bible as wrathful, jealous, and the creator of evil. He had to go looking for Adam and Eve in Eden, and had to come down from Heaven to check out Sodom and Gomorrah: hence not omniscient or omnipresent. And he's powerless against "chariots of iron", and allegedly had to arrange the death of Jesus for some unclear reason: hence not omnipotent. If you want to discuss this in more detail, maybe a new thread would be a better place for it.

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.

But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die.

Which is what I said: God killed David's totally innocent child. The Bible is full of this sort of thing: the punishment of innocents for the crimes of others.

God sacrificed himself voluntarily so that you could have intimate fellowships with him. What's so terrible about that?

When I mentioned "huamn sacrifices", I wasn't referring to Jesus. I meant human sacrifices: the Hebrew tendency to sacrifice people to YHWH, described several times in the Old Testament.

As for the carrying off of virgins could you give me the scriptural reference please. Save me work.

There are several. Follow the link.

Like I've indicated some ppl are not interested in truth. They just want to live their own egotistical lives and use others. If someone confronts them with the truth of their situation they are uncomfortable and get defensive and try to 'escape' and come up with all sorts of stuff that defends them. No one likes to be uncomfortable. The sad thing is that this state of being uncomfortable doesn't lead to progress or change of heart just reinforcement of their own ways and denial.

I agree completely. But which of us is "in denial"? You seem to be describing yourself here.

lightblue:

I started reading again, but once the bible verses started...

Point taken! But I think the original discussion had run out of steam. If anyone wants to carry on with the original topic, then let's do that.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
If you follow the ideas Jesus exposed in his story about the Samaritan, if you are good and fair, christian or not you will be accepted in Heaven.

If you said that you are a God follower but you are unfair and not genereous, Heaven will not open its doors for you, for sure !

All personn can be Christian if they really and trustfully want it, dead or alive.

Are you talking down your French nose? J/k.

Following ideas will do ziltz as far as salvation goes.

The Samaritan story is about christian love and has nothing to do with salvation.

To shed light on a biblical topic you should be careful to avoid breaking one of the interpretational rules:

This one's for you lightblue :
Psalm 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; and every one of thy righteous ordinances endures for ever.

See the first half. Sum - to get the correct sum you need all the necessary parts. Not just what suits you.

Of course if somebody want to be christian only to escape hell, it will not work.

Why not?

The rite of purification his symbolic, no need of Jesus blood for it. Bull****.

No need for dying on the cross.

Clean water and true feeling are only mandatory.

What good will water do you?

BTW, how is the religious situation in France today? It's seems you guys wanna crack down on everything that isn't strictly catholic. So much for religious freedom. Nothing new in France though. Christianity was banned for 3 1/2 years in the "enlightened" era. In 1793 the ban was in effect I think.

First, I recommend you read up on St. Augustine of Hippo. He converted to Christianity later in his life, and was a platonist at one point. He is the one that raises this question, and the Church recognizes it as fact. Everything is pre-destined. If you believe in the Judeo-Christian, omniscient God, you believe in pre-destination. The only way anyone can be prescient, is if they know everything that will happen. If they know everything that will happen, then there is no way to change what will happen. Therefore, since everything is pre-destined, and God knows it, I am either saved or not saved, and there's nothing I can do to change the outcome.

Hippo the church father has some good points, but predestination is not one of them. He changed important parts of his theology during his lifetime IIRC.

The majority of the church does not recognize this as a fact, despite of Augustine. Just ask Lincoln who believes in the teaching.

I already argued against what you said on predestination and will not repeat it.