The Blind Atheist

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Lincoln
The attractions and chemical bonds within life does not solve the information problem. That is merely the mechanical method that the information uses.

No. All DNA needs is 1 enzyme (I believe it is called unzipase) to split it in half and it can be self-replicating. There were probably smaller macromolecules that needed even less.

The idea of fantastic odds producing life somehow because of the amount of time available or the size of the universe is not logical. Some things will never happen regardless of space or time. For instance I found a couple of gear from an old watch in the sand once. It was on a shaft inside of a hollow shaft that had another gear attached to it that meshed with another. No amount of time or space would ever produce such a thing. Certainly even the postulated beginning forms of life are more complicated than the simple gears that I found that were designed by intelligence.

Question of scale - molecules DO form randomly, many times every second. Furthermore, while carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen in solution can react with each other, steel is fairly inert, except by oxidization.

Large numbers do not solve the problem. If 2 plus 2 equals 4 then no amount of time will change that. The “large numbers” will merely cloud the solution to the problem which is simple. Proof should not be hard to find in this information age. Simply allow a computer to produce the information from a completely random program with no intelligent input.

But if you add a number from 1 to 1,000,000 with another number from 1 to 1,000,000, there is some chance you will get 4.
As quantuum phenomena show, wierd things DO happen when probability is taken into account.

The proteins are tools that must be ordered about logically in order to perform their specific tasks

The basic task of life is self-replication. As I said earlier, only one protein is needed for DNA to do this.

[DaShi]

Some argue that RNA came before DNA and before that there was another simpler molecule. I think it is called TNA.

[Lincoln]

Thai women

"Tell us about the Thai women."

Actually there is no Thai woman but I kinda wish there was. These must be the most feminine and beautiful women in the world. Most are kind of shy (I'm not talking about bar girls here). I do know one in particular who has also introduced me to her friends and family. She is a real sweet heart but we are just casual friends.

The men here have a reputation for treating their wives like so much ****. Not all of course but it is not at all unusual for them to have what they call here "minor wives". It is a real pity because the women are generally very faithful. Many foreigners are attracted to Thai women because they do not like the feminism in the west and they would just like a kind hearted woman who does not want to be a man.

Thai women are engaged in business here and they do not seem to be oppressed in the least. Thai culture seems to have found a balance that would work quite well I think if the men were more considerate of the gentle and kind nature of their wives.

I must say that the women make this society work. The mothers especially are held in high regard.

[Jesus H Christ]

You know, Dad once told me that the funniest prank he ever pulled was telling Moses that the world was created in 7 days. If I recall correctly, his exact words were:

"And, can you believe it? He bought it!"

Mom wasn't pleased, but then, she was always the strict one in the family. She argued with Dad for a whole week about this issue, but I gotta go with Dad on this one (and this is the argument that made Mom, if not hush completely on the subject, calm down a bit.) He said:

"Honey, how am I supposed to explain Cosmology to a man who doesn't even know the Sun is a star? And I tell you what: if you think it's so bloody easy, you go and teach these bronze-agers about evolution, ok dear?"

Man, Dad just cracks me up!

[Goingonit]

I see a coming up.

[DaShi]

Re: Thai women

Originally posted by Lincoln
Many foreigners are attracted to Thai women because they do not like the feminism in the west and they would just like a kind hearted woman who does not want to be a man.

Yes, I hear that that's how many of them started out.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Actually, you find the roles of men and women in Asia pretty much the same throughout. Not too different from the West, but less loss of face in this regard for the men.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Goingonit
I see a coming up.

Will this be a prune? I suggest that in order to preserve the threads. Also, prune the login behind the DL.

[lightblue]

Originally posted by Jesus H Christ
You know, Dad once told me that the funniest prank he ever pulled was telling Moses that the world was created in 7 days. If I recall correctly, his exact words were:

"And, can you believe it? He bought it!"

Mom wasn't pleased, but then, she was always the strict one in the family. She argued with Dad for a whole week about this issue, but I gotta go with Dad on this one (and this is the argument that made Mom, if not hush completely on the subject, calm down a bit.) He said:

"Honey, how am I supposed to explain Cosmology to a man who doesn't even know the Sun is a star? And I tell you what: if you think it's so bloody easy, you go and teach these bronze-agers about evolution, ok dear?"

Man, Dad just cracks me up!

Now this is one good personality... Shame it's been knocked into orbit. Wonder who it was?

[Lars-E]

AH, interesting exegesis on Psalms 14:1.

About atheists: I heard a funny "joke" this evening:

"God has a fun time around atheists. He laffs at them."

I think the laughing is in the bible. I think mocking too. Seems quite natural that God would laff around atheists.

Like what? You mean like what Lincoln gives? That doesn't prove that there is a god, but rather how little we understand the mechanisms of life or early evolution.

By external evidence I think AH means nature. And if we understand so little about evolution how come so many ppl are convinced it's the truth and nothing but the truth. Propaganda perhaps? The world wants to be fooled and ppl will think whatever suit their fancy. And it is hard for some ppl to face up to a living God who does not tolerate sin. I guess ppl feel uncomfortabel if they're not saved and God is close by. They feel condemned, not because of the christians as many claim, but because they are under conviction by God himself as the bible states: "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." (1 Thess 1:5) Even though there's deep conviction involved the Word of God is still rejected "Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit." (1 Thess 1:8). So according to the bible much of this is not related to reasoning about (evolution)/atheism , but rather an attitude problem. I'm sure there's more to it, but that's all I could dig up for now.

AH, the Universe never *popped* into existence. It always was and always will be. You cannot get something from nothing. The Universe is something, so it always was, and never arose out of nothing. This also means the Universe always will be.

So you don't believe in the big bang or creation? This doesn't seem to be mainstream thought.

Large numbers: In theory anything can happen. Regardless ppl don't think that anything is possible? If n monkey were given n typewriters in theory they could produce 1 encyclopedia after m years. In theory this could happen, but who in here would actually believe it?

I'm glad Jesus H Christ is deactivated. He didn't seem to believe in himself. What does the H stand for BTW?

Actually, you find the roles of men and women in Asia pretty much the same throughout. Not too different from the West, but less loss of face in this regard for the men.

Scandinavians and Japanese can lose face.

Lincoln, I asked you about Thai women comparing to "women of the West" because you stated something about this when you left the USA. I was not meaning to be impolite. Hopefully you will find a nice christian Thai lady.

[mactbone]

No, big bang can still happen, because the big bang means that the stuff of the universe was compacted tightly, then exploded. So the Universe was always there, it just expanded. Violently.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Lars-E
I think the laughing is in the bible. I think mocking too. Seems quite natural that God would laff around atheists.

God doesn't mock. He is a jealous God, a merciful God, a vengeful God, but not a God renowned for a sense of humour.

By external evidence I think AH means nature. And if we understand so little about evolution how come so many ppl are convinced it's the truth and nothing but the truth. Propaganda perhaps?

We can know something is true without knowing why. An example is quantuum mechanics. This is one of the most accurate theories ever made, yet it is impossible to explain or understand.

And we know about evolution because of Occam's Razor, which states that with a full set of facts, the simplest theory is the correct one.

The world wants to be fooled and ppl will think whatever suit their fancy. And it is hard for some ppl to face up to a living God who does not tolerate sin. I guess ppl feel uncomfortabel if they're not saved and God is close by. They feel condemned, not because of the christians as many claim, but because they are under conviction by God himself as the bible states: "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." (1 Thess 1:5) Even though there's deep conviction involved the Word of God is still rejected "Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit." (1 Thess 1:8). So according to the bible much of this is not related to reasoning about (evolution)/atheism , but rather an attitude problem. I'm sure there's more to it, but that's all I could dig up for now.

Point well taken. Yet it works against you too. People want to think that there is a purpose to life and that there is also a meaning to death. This belief is what underlies religion; people cling to faith because, in part, they fear the unknown: life and death are most certainly unknown.

Large numbers: In theory anything can happen. Regardless ppl don't think that anything is possible? If n monkey were given n typewriters in theory they could produce 1 encyclopedia after m years. In theory this could happen, but who in here would actually believe it?

Me. Here is a good site. You may want to check its entry on creationism as well, although the autor tends to be dismissive about certain things. http://www.skepdic.com/lawofnumbers.html

BTW, I just talked to my uncle who is making a documentary on genetics. He told me that RNA can act as an enzyme and split itself. Thus, no information whatsoever is needed, but just RNA, any RNA, and life will be formed.

[Lincoln]

Goingonit,
You seem to be missing the point entirely.

You need to read the chapter Snowflakes and DNA. there are no chemical reactions that can explain the specific order of DNA. I am talking about the lateral reactions. Read the chapter and get back to me. A,G,C,T all have an equal lateral bonding capability. The order that they are in is not explained by chemical laws.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Goingonit,
You seem to be missing the point entirely.

You need to read the chapter Snowflakes and DNA. there are no chemical reactions that can explain the specific order of DNA. I am talking about the lateral reactions. Read the chapter and get back to me. A,G,C,T all have an equal lateral bonding capability. The order that they are in is not explained by chemical laws.

You seem to be missing the point entirely. Life is possible without any language at all. RNA will split itself, and self-replicate itself.

As for the language, nobody understands it. But once again, Occam to the rescue! Which is more likely: there is a biochemical explanation that we do not know yet, or that there is a supernatural intelligence who decided to make DNA the way it is? There have been unknown things throughout history; now we know their cause. There has been no great mystery which has been proven unprovable.

[Lincoln]

Here is an excerpt:

Now what about the letters (or chemicals) that you initially arranged in any random order? In my instructions you remember that I said to put the 4 letters in whatever order that you wanted. This still is in some ways just simple chemical reactions. There is nothing miraculous about how they are put together if you think of four different people holding hands. They are joined together by their hands gripping each other. In that sense the 4 chemicals A, T, C, and G have no problem with holding hands with each other. They are not in the least bit prejudiced so they can be arranged in any order and they are still quite happy. The only question that remains really is what does the order mean to the living cell and the human being or plant that results from that seemingly random order of letters? Here is where simple chemical laws of nature break down. The reason they break down is not because chemical laws or thermodynamic laws are defied but because they cannot explain the order which as it turns out is not random at all. My analogy of the ladder was not correct in one place and that is where I told you to write the letters in any random order that you chose. In real life they appear to be random just like the ones that you did but they are in a precise order that represents a coded language.

If only chemical laws were being considered then the DNA code would be entirely random. Of course it is not.

[Lincoln]

Sorry buddy but relpication has nothing to do with the origin of information. There is no question about replication. The question is the origin of the information to begin with.