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Well, Libertarians, here's your chance to defend Enron

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  • #61
    Jeeeez....where to start.....

    First place, most of you are barking up the wrong tree about Enron. The failure of Enron was not caused by the relationship between Enron and the government. The problem is the relationship between the management of Enron and its stockholders / owners. Enron management was robbing the company blind with various pyramid scheems designed to book profits and hide losses, and the owners, in whose interest management is supposedly working, apparently did not have sufficient information about operations to detect, prevent, or correct this. This is what is known in economics as an agency problem. How do the owners get their agents (management) to act in the owner's interests (long term profits) rather than in mangement's interests (high salaries, big offices, fast cars, whatever)? Government agencies such as the SEC are one step removed from the source of theproblem, making it even harder for them to get information than it is for the shareholders, as Roland's post suggests. Active involvement by large, interested shareholders such as large retirement systems and mutual funds is a step in the right direction.

    Second, Adam Smith argued for laissez faire in preference to the existing mercantilist system. He specifically recognized that market failures may exist in a laissez faire economy. Monopolies, defense, and pollution from neighbors chimneys (IIRC) are specifically mentioned in Wealth of Nations. Smith argued against government involvement in many of these cases due to his views on personal liberty, not on the grounds that it would make the economy less efficient.

    Third, the statement that the advent of corporations limited personal liability is literally correct, but the effect is exactly the opposite of what people are arguing. Corporations were developed in order to make it easier to raise capital. They do this in two ways. First, the corporation survives the death of any individual person associated with it, meaning that existing contracts need not be renegotiated. Second, if a tort is committed, the corporation is sued not the individual. While this lets the individual off the hook for liability, it exposes the corporation, which has much larger assets than any individual, to liability. By allowing the corporation to be sued, plaintifs are more likely to recieve compensation than if only individuals could be sued. Investors are more likely to recover their money, again making it easier to raise capital.

    Lastly, who says markets cant work with respect to schools, airline security, HMO'S? HMO's have worked very well in certain areas. Western New York, Wisconsin, and Northern California come to mind. IIRC, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Chicago are all for-profit schools, not to mention many outstanding private primary and secondary schools. As for airline security, El Al is probalby target number on e on every hijackers list, but has never had a hijack. Why? Their customers demand, and are willing to pay for, a very high level of security. (edit: the addional security is provided primarily by the airline, not by the government. In other words, El AL provides a much higher level of security than other carries have at JFK or other major airports outside Israel.)

    I probably forgot six other points to make, but that's enough for now.
    Last edited by Adam Smith; January 23, 2002, 15:02.
    Old posters never die.
    They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....

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    • #62
      I have yet to see a decent libertarian solution to the airline security problem.
      I've never understood this.

      So you believe that people are too stupid to select a safer airline, given the freedom to do so, and given the airline's freedom to discriminately select its passengers — yet you believe they are smart enough to elect professional racketeers to make their decisions for them.

      Bizarre.
      "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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      • #63
        El Al is government owned, government run. They have a monopoly on Air service to and from Israel, and they have the resources of the Israeli government at their disposal. The customers have no choice whether or not to be safe.

        The other problem with Enron is that they bilked their own empoloyees out of their retirement money. Granted, they know the risk involved in 401K's, but by Enron falsified their earnings reports, and then barred employees from selling their stock. Therefore, employees were totally unprotected from the management's shananagens.

        I know that Adam Smith argued for more government involvement than most libertarians would permit, but my argument with regards to the environment are in opposition to modern, not classical libertarianism. My criticism of Smith's theories are that while some fundamental truths apply (supply and demand), the industrial (and now the information) revolutions add very complex dynamics to our economic systems. Good examples of these complex dynamics inculde things such as energy trading, waged workers, "company towns", corporate paternalism, and the such. Smith's theories work best in simpler economic systems, where the sweat of your brow really was the best way to make a good living. As the society grows and becomes more complex, it requires government to grow to meet these demands.
        "The only dangerous amount of alcohol is none"-Homer Simpson

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        • #64
          "So you believe that people are too stupid to select a safer airline, given the freedom to do so, and given the airline's freedom to discriminately select its passengers — yet you believe they are smart enough to elect professional racketeers to make their decisions for them."

          Call it what you like, but look at the result of "the market" on airline security. Did it work? Nope. I suppose you would privatize our other law enforcement agencies too. Why shouldn't people be able to pick what police officers they want to enforce the law? You can't leave law enforcement exposed to market forces, or it won't be done properly. There is a difference between electing a ruler and choosing an airline, and you know it. No false analagies here, thank you very much.
          "The only dangerous amount of alcohol is none"-Homer Simpson

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          • #65
            You're more slippery than a greased cat. Your question was answered. You keep changing the subject.

            The necessary complexity of government is directly proportional to how you define it. If its sole role is to secure the rights of its citizens, then it need "grow" toward one purpose only. You can't use a dicto simpliciter to prove your point.
            "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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            • #66
              Call it what you like, but look at the result of "the market" on airline security. Did it work? Nope.
              The market?

              No wonder you're so confused. You equate robber baron capitalism, where Senator Fatcat partners with Mister Tycoon to exchange special favors, with a noncoercive free-market.
              "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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              • #67
                You know what? The whole premise of this thread is kooky. It's like asking Marxists to step up and defend Stalin.

                Feh.
                "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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                • #68
                  "....barred employees from selling their stock"

                  ****! Is that legal!? It would sure be red flag to me... is this a common practice in the USA??
                  "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
                  "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
                  "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

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                  • #69
                    I'm not "changing the subject," I am just talking along with the flow of this thread.

                    The airline security tycoons? Yeah right. Just face the fact that profit-making does not always coincide with the good of society. What makes enforcing FAA regulations so inherently different than the police enforcing other laws? It shows a great deal of ignorance on the part of libertarians to deny the failure of markets in this instance. Even Adam Smith recognized the limits of the market to do good for society. Why don't modern libertarians?

                    Are you familiar with chaos theory at all? If not, I'll explain later, but basically chaos theory helps explain why governments are always going to grow. With complexity of society exponentially growing, government, out of necessity, must also grow to meet the demands of a more complex society. Libertarians are reactionists in the worst way: they seek to turn back the clock 250 years, and that is impossible. You can't come up with a philosophical argument that will be able to define the laws of mathematics.
                    "The only dangerous amount of alcohol is none"-Homer Simpson

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                    • #70
                      The scary thing is that it is legal.
                      "The only dangerous amount of alcohol is none"-Homer Simpson

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                      • #71
                        Is chaos theory really a mathematical law?

                        It doesn't really matter to me, I guess. I'd still rather place my trust in myself, rather than a bloated goverment that chaos theory says is necessary.
                        KH FOR OWNER!
                        ASHER FOR CEO!!
                        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                        • #72
                          Gah. I'm debating with a man who wonders whether I'm familiar with Chaos Theory. Please don't be patronizing. The relevant theory in this instance is an economic one, Hayek's Theory of Spontaneous Order.
                          "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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                          • #73
                            Yes, Chaos Theory is indeed a law. Take any chemistry class, and you'll hear about how disorder is always increasing in the universe. This applies to human society also. Look, for instance, at the exponential increase in the human population. Look at the exponential increase of computing power in computers. Look at the exponential nature of any technology. Look at any economic indicators, and you'll see their polynomial nature if it is represented graphically. That's complex, I know, but let me try to simplify my argument: If a town has one hundred citizens, one sheriff could probably do a decent job enforcing the law. In a few years, lt's say the population has grown to 200. The police department would have to grow as well. The same is applicable for any number of functions. Additionally, as technology grows, government must take on even more functions. While our government may be slightly larger than needed, if you look at any other government's size, you'll see similar statistics. And now, with the advent of computers, the government payroll can shrink (by moving human functions to computer functions) while not actually reducing the level of governance.
                            "The only dangerous amount of alcohol is none"-Homer Simpson

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                            • #74
                              If I remember my chemistry correctly, what you referred to was a Law of Thermodynamics (2nd I think) not Chaos Theory. The two are certainly interrelated, but the Laws of Thermodynamics have much more evidence behind them. Chaos Theory is much broader, less supported and certainly not something you should base a political argument on. That's just my opinion though.
                              KH FOR OWNER!
                              ASHER FOR CEO!!
                              GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                              • #75
                                The laws of thermodynamics are an example of what chaos theory is talking about. Chaos theory tries to bring together various "disorder" theories from a number of fields into an overarching "disorder" math. Regardless of what you think of chaos theory generally, nobody would be able to argue that the complexity of our society is increasing exponentially. What I am saying is that the complexity of a society is proportional in some mathematical way to the base functions of a government. What I mean by this is that the minimum demands on a government will always increase due to the nature of time. Obviously, the level of governance in an authoritarian state is greater than in a liberal democracy, so what I am saying is that at even the minimal functions of government are always increasing-out of necessity-which libertarians seem to deny.
                                "The only dangerous amount of alcohol is none"-Homer Simpson

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