Well, Libertarians, here's your chance to defend Enron

[Hoek]

I am waiting to see somebody defend Enron, and further more, the nature of our economic system that it seems Enron did nothing technically illegal. This is what happens when you give a corporation more rights than you or I. Defend the fact that Enron was paid 250 million dollars last year in taxes, which came out of your and my pockets. Defend your "laissez-faire" principles in the face of one of the worst cases of corporate greed wreaked havoc on thousands of lives. I really want you to come to terms with what you all have been preaching and defend yourselves.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Well, Libertarians, here's your chance to defend Enron

Originally posted by Hoek
I am waiting to see somebody defend Enron,

Why should they defend a company that has violated the basic precepts of the marketplace? Or was this thread meant to be an entertaining diversion for the "libertarian horde"?

[Roland]

Enron is the product of crony capitalism, rather than liberalism. Esp on the tax subsidy. And fraud would be illegal in the most liberal or even libertarian system.

The question is one of prevention. A free market model would mean enron could do what it wants without oversight. On the other hand, investors would have to be much more distrustful without the cozy illusion provided by the SEC et al. Personally I favour some basic and independent oversight, but if people like the enron crew want to commit fraud, it's tough to prevent that from happening - of yourse, _punishing_ corporate crime might also help a bit...

[Hoek]

Laissez-faire libertarians seem to think that the government has no role in the economy, other than printing currency, guarunteeing contracts, and protecting private property. They would not in a million years consider that possibly the government should do something to prevent more abuse by corporations along these lines.

[faded glory]

Justice will be served. Michael Milkin couldnt get away with this. Ken Lay wont either.


Ps....it bothers me. Its the worst of capitalism. But we must look past the worst and try for better aims.

[Roland]

Re: Re: Well, Libertarians, here's your chance to defend Enron

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why should they defend a company that has violated the basic precepts of the marketplace? Or was this thread meant to be an entertaining diversion for the "libertarian horde"?

Nope, I guess it's just another troll by big-government Americom.

[DinoDoc]

Hoek, you do realize that fraud and insider trading would likely be illegal even under a libertarian system of government, don't you?

[Wraith]

I fail to see why libertarians should be defending Enron, unless you're operating from one of those rather odd definitions of libertarian that seem to be meant on this forum rather often.

--"and further more, the nature of our economic system that it seems Enron did nothing technically illegal."

Libertarians complain quite a lot about the kinds of things that are and aren't legal in our system that shouldn't be this way. Fraud is one of them. Enron may have technicalitied its way through this, but their actions would hardly be approved of under a libertarian legal system.

--"This is what happens when you give a corporation more rights than you or I."

Which is corporatism, not lassiez-faire. Under a true free market, a corporation would, in and of itself, have no rights. Groups don't have any more rights than the individuals making it up do.

--"Defend the fact that Enron was paid 250 million dollars last year in taxes, which came out of your and my pockets."

Libertarians have never supported corporate welfare, and one of the main groups decrying it. We just don't get news coverage when we do.

--" I really want you to come to terms with what you all have been preaching and defend yourselves."

I really wish you'd pay a little attention to us here so you'd know what we have been preaching before deriding us for it, because it sure doesn't look like you have.

Wraith
"She walked quickly through the darkness with the frank stride of someone who was at least certain that the forest, on this damp and windy night, contained strange and terrible things and she was it."
-- Wyrd Sisters

[Seeker]

I don't understand this whole Enron thing. I hear a lot of people are either broke or jobless...?

Someone lay it all out for us mindless masses.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Libertarians are not very fond of LOSERS. They will let ERON fend for itself.

[The Eliminator]

I would never defend Enron, nor would anyone in their right mind. They are a band of crooks! However, to their 'credit' they took great advantage of governmental interference, and exploited the loopholes that the US government had created by way of their massive bureaucracy.

In a true free market Enron never would have happened. They would have either collapsed or been eaten alive. It was due to the distgusting antics of bloated government that they were allowed to do what they did.

Hoek should learn the definition of Libertarianism or Laissez Faire for that matter. In none of our writings does it anywhere say that "government has no role" - on the contrary. Government has a huge role, to ensure that they playing field is leveled - something that they sure as heck don't do now - re: Enron!

[Libertarian]

Libertarian government suppresses the initiation of force and fraud. The OP is swatting at a red herring with a strawman broom.

[Hoek]

I am familiar with Libertarianism, and I toyed with being a libertarian myself for a while until I realized that its really just a bunch of guys who don't want to pay for taxes.

The general principles of libertarianism arise from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, which theorizes that left to its own devices, a free market economy will bring the most amount of wealth to the most amount of people. However, he wrote this in 1776, before the Information and Industrial revolutions. Both these developments have had significant effects on the economy, and modern economics is far more complex than Adam Smith's theories can absolutely applicable for.

In the modern world, the government does have a significant role to play, which indeed is to level the playing field. Our government does not do that nearly enough. Libertarians don't even support antitrust legislation to level the playing field. An in terms of taxation, they support high tariffs as the only way government should fund its operations.

In terms of Enron, the government could have done a whole lot more to prevent this from happening. American government is constitutionally mandated to look out for the general welfare of the populace, and in this instance, they did not. Why is it that principles of democracy should not be extended to the economy?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The general principles of libertarianism arise from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, which theorizes that left to its own devices, a free market economy will bring the most amount of wealth to the most amount of people. However, he wrote this in 1776, before the Information and Industrial revolutions. Both these developments have had significant effects on the economy, and modern economics is far more complex than Adam Smith's theories can absolutely applicable for.

You ever read the Wealth of Nations? There is a substantial role of government to play in the economy according to Adam Smith.

In the modern world, the government does have a significant role to play, which indeed is to level the playing field. Our government does not do that nearly enough. Libertarians don't even support antitrust legislation to level the playing field. An in terms of taxation, they support high tariffs as the only way government should fund its operations.

So all Libertarians are the same? So all Democrats believe in higher taxes? So all Republicans are anti-abortion? Generalizations aren't warrented.

[chequita guevara]

Hoek, I'm with the Libertarians on this one. Enron was built on fraud and government connections and our system of legalized government bribery. Under a libertarian system, the later two would be unlikely to happen, since there would be no government to aid them, and they would still be responsible for the fraud. What happened at Enron was not an example of laissez-faire capitalism but rather modern corporate capitalism.

Don't go after the Libbies, go after Republicrats and the Demipublicans. They fostered this mess.