Well, Libertarians, here's your chance to defend Enron

[Bereta_Eder]

I am not tearing my clothes apart. First, I'm not a foaming at the mouth commie and haven't been one for many years. Two, even when I was clothes cost money, and delibertately destroying your clothes is foolish.

Trojan horse.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Hoek
The main idea of socialism is that the state controls the main lines of production, which is supposed to benefit the workers. It's fundamental belief is that market economies are wrong.

That is an idea of socialism, but it is not the main idea, nor is it common to all forms of socialism. What you describe is what is referred to by some proponents on the left as, market socialism.

Welcome to the socialist movement, you pinko Hoek.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, welcome indeed.

Actually the Soviet Union made the rest of Europe humane.

Indirectly. To stave off Soviet influence and power .

I'm not talking about socialist influence in the US.

I'm saying that medical care, welfare systems, worker's rights are ALL socialist achievements and that they own their existance to socialist influence.

[chequita guevara]

cg sings The Internationale to welcome socialism's newest member, Hoek.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yes, welcome indeed.

Actually the Soviet Union made the rest of Europe humane.

Indirectly. To stave off Soviet influence and power .

Yes precisely.

I'm not talking about socialist influence in the US.

I'm saying that medical care, welfare systems, worker's rights are ALL socialist achievements and that they own their existance to socialist influence.

What do you not understand? (seeing that you understood the first part)

[Imran Siddiqui]

What do you not understand? (seeing that you understood the first part)

Basically that both statements seem contradictory. Unless you you are saying socialist influence in your second statement refers to worldwide socialist influence, as opposed to US socialist influence.

Yes precisely.

Then you have to give credit to Rome's Popes for heralding in the secular state .

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

What do you not understand? (seeing that you understood the first part)

Basically that both statements seem contradictory. Unless you you are saying socialist influence in your second statement refers to worldwide socialist influence, as opposed to US socialist influence.

(as a first step don't differentiate between "american socialism" and "european socialism". In the bigger picture there's only capitalism and socialism with the latter having a wider international character -suppression of nation state)

What I am saying is that it was the socialist movements that led to the creation of welfare systems, medical care, worker rights etc.
Capitalism per se just wanted to keep exploit people and keep them from revolting.

Socialist ideas made that impossible. Socialist ideals made that capitalism had to develop a humane face or it would have been abolished.

Socialist pressure and influence gave capitalist societies a more humane face.

Yes precisely.

Then you have to give credit to Rome's Popes for heralding in the secular state .

Not relevant

[Imran Siddiqui]

What I am saying is that it was the socialist movements that led to the creation of welfare systems, medical care, worker rights etc.

Isn't that something I agreed with?

Not relevant

So what, then neither is Stalin.

[Hoek]

I flirted with libertarianism several years ago primarily because of their social policies, not their economic ones. You must remember, after all, that I am only 18. People are allowed to change their minds, and I have certainly done so over the past few years. It's interesting, actually, because I grew up in a super-liberal town, and was always considered conservative. However, real conservatives would undoubtedly call me a flamin' liberal. I liked libertarianism because at that time I thought government was something to be minimized, and that maximum authority should be given to individuals. I still believe that the government has no place outlawing victimless crimes like drug use and prostitution, but I am also pro-life. I am quite conservative when it comes to military action and I am quite pro-law enforcement. I guess you could call me a Truman democrat: I believe strongly in liberal domestic policies while also believing in protecting our institutions and enforcing our laws. If your definition of a socialist is someone who supports socioeconomic justice, then call me a socialist (that isn't my definition of socialism, though). When it comes down to it, what I really want to see is the market system reward hard work, which it often doesn't. Beyond that, I am also a utilitarian. I think that having a large poor populace is inherently dangerous to our society, regardless of any philosophical arguments. It is thin ice that guys like Bill Gates has 40 billion dollars, while people who work 60 hours a week barely can afford to support their family.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is thin ice that guys like Bill Gates has 40 billion dollars, while people who work 60 hours a week barely can afford to support their family.

Supply and demand. The guy working 60 hours works in a low demand, high supply job, thus gets paid less. Gates' business genius is high demand and low supply, and he founded the damned buisness .

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

What I am saying is that it was the socialist movements that led to the creation of welfare systems, medical care, worker rights etc.

Isn't that something I agreed with?

Did you? Brilliant

[Hoek]

I think of my ideas as being more populist than anything else. The reason I try to avoid the label "socialist" is because I associate it with Marx and Engels, who I disagree with on many many levels. I am not philosophically attached to the idea of "power to the workers," I just think that a more balanced economic system that tries to mitigate abuse would be far healthier for our society.

Call me what you like

[Wraith]

--"In the modern world, the government does have a significant role to play, which indeed is to level the playing field."

The government has no such role, at least, not the US government. Just look at its founding charter. It was formed to protect the rights of its citizens, not to "level the playing field".

--"An in terms of taxation, they support high tariffs as the only way government should fund its operations."

We certainly do not. Have you heard of the concept of contractual insurance? Libertarians tend not to like tariffs, they just happen to be one of the taxes the federal government has the authority to collect.

--"Why is it that principles of democracy should not be extended to the economy?"

Well, first of all, we're a republic, not a democracy. Secondly, a true free market is about as democratic as you can get, since everyone is free to vote with their dollars, without someone telling them where to do so.

--"However, the idea that "let the cards fall where they may" can not be applied to modern economies."

I'm sure the S&L industry felt the same way a few years ago...

--"In our system, a company may bar employees from selling company stock while they cash their own options out."

From what I've seen, that was a bit of incorrect early reporting. Enron employees do seem to have been able to sell their stock at any point along the rise or decline, they just did not do so.

--"The whole idea of the corporation is inherently flawed I think."

Many libertarians, including myself, agree.

--"but I support a "people's capitalism," where a "corporation" would be owned entirely by the employees"

So I guess "people's capitalism" is the doubletalk term for socialism?

--"It is a negative-sum game."

Okay. Thanks for letting us know early on that there's no point in arguing here.

--"The main idea of socialism is that the state controls the main lines of production,"

There is a difference between communism (described here) and socialism (what you're calling people's capitalism).

--"What I am saying is that it was the socialist movements that led to the creation of welfare systems, medical care, worker rights etc."

Er... no. I'll grant you welfare systems (but I fail to see how you can claim this as a good achievement). Medical care was around a long time before socialism, and considering the quality of Soviet medical care, you're going to have a hard time claiming they advanced the science to the degree where it can be considered created by their influence. Worker rights would depend totally on your definition, since most of the things usually called that have nothing whatsoever to do with actual rights.

--"but I am also pro-life."

A large number of libertarians are. The only debate about abortion in the LP is about where you can place the mark that says "life starts here". Once it's consider an actual human being, it's murder and should be prevented. It's just the placement of this mark that's under contention.

--"am quite conservative when it comes to military action and I am quite pro-law enforcement. "

Oddly enough, military and police are two of the three (the other being the courts) functions of government that libertarians tend to support. We do have a lot of disagreements with specific applications of these areas, but not the concepts in general.

--"If your definition of a socialist is someone who supports socioeconomic justice"

Define "socioeconomic justice" and we'll let you know. Those terms are so... open, as to be largely useless without further comment. Does it mean "the same rules for everyone" or does it mean "everyone gets the same" or does it mean "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", or something else entirely?

Wraith
"The Constitution is a written instrument. As such its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when adopted, it means now."
-- Justice Brewer ("State of Southern Caroline vs. US" - Majority Opinion)

[Hoek]

Is Gates' work worth 40 billion dollars? I think not. What is your remedy for the guy working 60 hours a week? What options does he have?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Did you? Brilliant

Damn Greeks, can't read English right .

Is Gates' work worth 40 billion dollars? I think not. What is your remedy for the guy working 60 hours a week? What options does he have?

Yes it is. And The remedy is a better job. I support workfare, which is the government helping those without jobs to get jobs, even providing minor training. I also am for cheaper higher education, but that is the realm of the states, not the Federal Government, really.