The noose is tightening on arafat

[Eli]

Two terrorists(or 1) opened fire in Center Jerusalem near the famous Sbarro restaurant, they/he got killed by either soldiers or policeman. 10+ people were hurt, no information about dead.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Eli
Werent the Allies destroying the German economy in WW2? And destroying homes?

That was probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen in Apolyton so far!

Are Israelis and Palestinians at war?!? Are they?
Because if they are, I don't see why haven't the Israeli seized military supremacy and destroyed every armed focus of Palestinian resistance? If they aren't, why do people keep getting killed?
I know that this subject is a hard and bitter subject to get over with, and get an agreement. But for God's sake, comparing it with WW 2 is just so... childish, dude!

[Eli]

29 injured. 5 of them seriously. Al Jazeera says that Hamas claimed responsibility.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Absolutely! If you go around perpetrating human rights abuses it is difficult to condemn others for doing the same thing.

So what you're saying is that "he did it too" is a good defence? These ME threads can get so confusing. Also, I think your ignoring the time lapse here.

The US however, at least partially redeems itself by acknowledging (behind closed doors, if not formally) that the American Indian extermination was a 'bad thing', and has made attempts to act more responsibly and humanely in more modern times.

I think the same could be said of Israel.

I have nothing against conventional wars (although they should of course be avoided whenever possible), and I hardly think you can hold modern Germany accountable for the Allied bombings.

I hardly think you can hold modern Israel (or even 1948 Israel) responsible for Irgun bombings.

The Isaeli government, on the other hand, has done very little to distance itself from its terrorists roots

Israel was founded by Mapai, not the revisionists. The Irgunists were excluded from government for 30 years.

and it would seem that people like you are still continuing to try and excuse these roots and even justify them.

And since I'm an Israeli ( ), I guess that delegitimizes Israel too.

Arafat doesn't ahve any control on those loonies in the intifada

1) So why should Sharon deal with him at all?
2) What does he have 30,000+ armed "police officers" with RPGs, boats, and even light armored vehicles for then?
3) Couldn't he at least state that he disagrees with them, or at least stop stating that they are his brothers and that he is "at unity" with them?

but the way AS is dealing with the Palestinians, destroying many people houses and the Palestinian economy, is really not less terrorism than that made by Arafat 30 years ago.

It's nice that you consider your house and job more valuable then your life, but I think most reasonable people would disagree.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Eli
Werent the Allies destroying the German economy in WW2? And destroying homes?

PA = Nazi ?

[faded glory]

I wont shed any tears when arafat is gone. He is a thug and dictator. Anyone who defends him is a moron or brainwashed. Six Israeli leaders have been around since the movement for a free palestine. But yassir is still there....no elections......only thuggery,terrorism and propaganda.

[Estilpón]

I'm reading and I'm surprised. But now, I know some reasons why the islamic world hate USA and Israel.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Natan
So what you're saying is that "he did it too" is a good defence?

Er no. I was saying the exact opposite. 'He did it too' is not a good excuse.

Israel was founded by Mapai, not the revisionists. The Irgunists were excluded from government for 30 years.

Are you claiming that Begin (sp?) was not a terrorist?

And since I'm an Israeli ( ), I guess that delegitimizes Israel too.

No. It would delegitimize Israel if you were in the government though.

Besides - I thought you were American?

[Natan]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Er no. I was saying the exact opposite. 'He did it too' is not a good excuse.

But that PLO terrorism is justified by the Irgun fifty years ago?

Are you claiming that Begin (sp?) was not a terrorist?

I suppose the placing of mines on the railroads may have killed some civillians despite the Irgun's prior warnings, but there was not an army on earth at the time which didn't do the same.

Besides - I thought you were American?

Yes, and that's why I put a after the "I'm an Israeli" - because I was annoyed when you seemed to imply that I was by connecting "the Israeli government" with "and you still . . ."

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Natan
But that PLO terrorism is justified by the Irgun fifty years ago?

I don't think any terrorism is justified - by the PLO or anyone.

I suppose the placing of mines on the railroads may have killed some civillians despite the Irgun's prior warnings, but there was not an army on earth at the time which didn't do the same.

That is the point - they weren't an army and they weren't at war. They were killing innocent people in a peace time situation to achieve their political ends. Sounds like terrorism to me.

Yes, and that's why I put a after the "I'm an Israeli" - because I was annoyed when you seemed to imply that I was by connecting "the Israeli government" with "and you still . . ."

That isn't quite what I was meaning. I meant that by not condeming the past terrorist acts (of Irgun and related groups) you (and the Israel govt) appear to condone terrorism as an acceptable way to operate.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
That is the point - they weren't an army

So if you're not acting on behalf of a state, you're terrorists?

and they weren't at war.

I don't think such a large portion of the British army was present there to enjoy the weather.

They were killing innocent people

What exactly are you refering to here?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Natan
So if you're not acting on behalf of a state, you're terrorists?

Now you are getting there....

I don't think such a large portion of the British army was present there to enjoy the weather.

They were there to quell unrest and to try and catch the terrorists like Irgun. Remember that WWII had just ended. There are also a lot of British soldiers is Northern Ireland. Would you claim that people like the 'Real IRA' are not terrorists but are soldiers fighting a war?

What exactly are you refering to here?

There were civilians killed in many incidents (like the King David Hotel bombing) but I would also say that the soldiers were innocent too. Or do you think they deserved to die? Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

[Eli]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

In my eyes, yes.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Now you are getting there....

I think that's a rather poor definition - were the Partisans during WWII terrorists?

There are also a lot of British soldiers is Northern Ireland. Would you claim that people like the 'Real IRA' are not terrorists but are soldiers fighting a war?

They're not soldiers. But if they stopped gunning down civillians and blowing up shopping malls and just stuck to attacking soldiers, they would not be terrorists but guerillas.

There were civilians killed in many incidents (like the King David Hotel bombing)

Again, the King David Hotel was a military installation.

but I would also say that the soldiers were innocent too. Or do you think they deserved to die?

Most of the people killed in any war do not deserve to die.

Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

If we're going to use the term "terrorist" in a meaningful sense (and maybe we won't/can't) then I think we'd have to define them as guerillas if they renounced attacks on civillians.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Natan
I think that's a rather poor definition - were the Partisans during WWII terrorists?

Which ones? People like the French resistance were operating on behalf of a recognised government - the French govt in exile.

I think we may have a disagreement on the definition of the word 'terrorist'....