I wonder how Americans would feel if their soldiers were kept like the Al Qaeda POW's

[DinoDoc]

Let me try my hand at this.

Originally posted by MOBIUS
The fact is that you are allowing the fates of a few score Al Qaeda tarnish your World reputation as a fair and justice minded country

We are complying fully with the Geneva Convention, MOBIUS. If by doing so we are tarnishing our reputation as a fair and just nation, I'm sure that we might be able to find a few soldiers at Gitmo to rectify the situation.

Who cares whether you feel justified in meting out this punishment - to the rest of the World it's just another example of the disdain with which America treats the rest of the World!

We feel fully justified in meeting out this punishment becuase it falls fully within the bounds of internationally accepted law. We could become the ogres you seem to believe us to be if that would serve the interests of your hysterical rants though.

I went to a dinner invitation yesterday evening where among the guests were two Serbian language teachers - Almost the ENTIRE population of Serbia hates the US!!! When Serbia was attacked hundreds of civilians were killed by US warplanes and missiles, but as well as that the entire infrastructure of Serbia was smashed!

Yes, it is sickening what can happen when we allow self-important moralizers such as yourself to goad us into violating the bounds of international law to persue the amorphous concept of justice. And look what it has brought us? The destablization of neighboring countries, we've provided a safe haven for a terrorist army to opperate from, we're wasting resources in an area that will not be stable for years to come and for what? To please the slected few such as yourself who seems to believe that going beyond the letter of the law in order make your view of the world make sense?

[Alexander's Horse]

There is a book you hawks should read

Blowback!

By Jeff Sommers




In CIA parlance missions that are “successful” create backlashes. The CIA aptly calls this “Blowback.”



At the end of WW II the US took empire from a weakened Britain and France. Among the first casualties was East Europe, which was sacrificed on the mantle of superpower relations. That same deal between superpowers saw Greece put down by England and the US, with Soviet compliance. The Soviets and the West also concluded that the people of both their respective spheres would be put down if necessary in the interests of “stability.” Democracy on both sides of the Cold War divide was shelved.



The US maintained order during its tenure of hegemony through use of both covert and overt operations that helped signal the very blowback we witnessed on the 11th. In 1953 Allen Dulles, brother of Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, thought it clever to maintain order in Iran by overthrowing its democratically elected leader, Mohammed Mossadegh. The popular Mossadegh “erred” when he decided Iran’s oil belonged to Iran and not the multi-national corporations who held “rights” to it. He nationalized Iran’s oil. Allen Dulles sent in the CIA with suitcases full of money (the CIA had no oversight and so could spend liberally) to destabilize the government. They sent their agent Kim Roosevelt to remove Mossadegh. Kim Roosevelt was the grandson of that famous defender of the Spanish American War that brought the US no end of blowback. General H. Norman Schwarzkopf accom panied him—no, not the General we all know who commanded US forces in the Persian Gulf war, but his father. Schwarzkopf trained the Shah of Iran’s secret police in all sorts and manners of techniques that brutal dictatorships employ against their citizens. This bought “stability” and the return of oil to its “rightful” owners. The US oil companies got 40%, the Brits 40%, the Dutch 14% and the French 6%. Yet, in overthrowing Mossadegh a 25-year-long period of repression was launched against dissenters in Iran with significant blowback for all parties concerned. Most significantly this created a radical Islamic fundamentalist response that led to the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeni. In part, yesterday’s tragedy is blowback from Washington policies executed 50 years back.



During the 1980s the US found another opportunity for CIA mischief in the Middle East. In 1978 the Soviet Union frowned upon the more radical Marxist government that arose on its border in Afghanistan. Given that the Soviets cynically wielded terms like “Marxism” in the same way the US has often done with “democracy,” the Soviets felt no compunction about overthrowing a radical Marxist government with democratic impulses. As a superpower it sought obedience. The Soviets installed a government in Afghanistan loyal to themselves and would suffer blowback that in part led to the very dissolution of the USSR.



Coming off its own failed decades long attempt to install and maintain unpopular governments in Vietnam, the US was bemused by the Soviets finding themselves in a similar situation in Afghanistan. Among opponents of the Soviet backed regime in Afghanistan were Islamic fundamentalists. The CIA fanned the flames of fundamentalist fervor in order to fuel the ant-Soviet Afghani movement, the Mujahadeen. Yet, here too there would be blowback. When the Soviet Union collapsed the highly motivated fundamentalist force the US helped create and train in covert operations (the stuff of terrorism) they now turned their sights on their former benefactor. The marriage between Afghani fundamentalists and the CIA was purely one of convenience. When no longer “convenient” these highly-trained militants could now turn on that other source of misery in the Middle East: the US. Again, this was blowback.



This begs the question of why the US was perceived as a source of “evil” by Islamic extremists? We are all familiar with the reasons. A decade of bombing and embargoes have left Iraq’s electric, water, and health infrastructure in tatters. Saddam Hussein remains in power, but millions live in abject misery, and the United Nations’ own data shows over 700,000 children having died as a consequence of these US measures against Iraq. The Iraqi leadership has been unaffected. Hussein has punished the Kurds in the north of Iraq with impunity and the Shiite Muslims of the south treated to Hussein’s bloody fist too. Yet, Iraq did not dissolve into separate nations. This was the goal of US policy. This has been achieved at a terrible human cost and is another reason for blowback against the US.



The specter of US policy toward Israel continues to haunt America. Copious amounts of aid flows liberally to the Israeli government and spills out into Palestinian communities in the form of state violence. But, peace between Israel and Egypt is critical to Middle East stability. The US gets little of its oil from the Middle East, but US oil companies are present there and more importantly oil must flow freely and predictably for the smooth functioning of the global economy over which the US presides. Palestinians homes are routinely bulldozed and its people live under military occupation. When the Arabic nations try and address this matter civilly in the United Nations, as they just tried last week at the Durban conference, they are rebuffed by the US. Consequently, Palestinian children greet with delight the news of thousands of innocent people dying in the US on the 11th. This is blowback.



America will make many choices in the near future regarding how to engage the US. Let’s hope it remembers that actions have consequences. Jingoistic responses can backfire. Blowback might erupt quickly, or simmer for decades. When it strikes the consequences are devastating. We are poised to escalate the violence or begin to plumb the depths of our history in ways that might reveal how we can end these cascading series of tragedies. Hopefully, reason will prevail.

[KrazyHorse]

Man, we're running the gambit from fg (saying the prisoners deserve humane treatment is equivalent to requesting they be given a ticker-tape parade down fifth avenue) to Mobius (give peace a chance and maybe they won't hurt us).

Whatever. The main thing that's getting me is how much emphasis Rumsfeld's putting on these laddies not being POWs. That's raising red flags for me, suggesting he's going to use this position to justify something awful down the road. I'd be a lot happier if he said something like "Our position is that these men aren't POWs, but to demonstrate our commitment to human rights, they will receive treatment equal to that required for POWs".

[Chris 62]

Horsey, both you and Moby miss the point.

The USA is a scapegoat, no matter what it does or says, it will be a target.

Trying to please morons is futile and self-defeating, so spare me the "learn from mistakes" speech of Moby, we could treat em like kings and it wouldn't change world opinion one single bit.

We recognize this, many of you fellows continue to live in a dream world where you hate to ruffle feathers and sit on fences.

We learned a lesson about you people long ago, that method, which we now call apeasment, doen't work, and only leads to real disaster.

Maybe someday you will all climb out of those Ivory towers and see it.

Moby, did you ask your Serb friends if they felt a bit of responcibilty for what their nation did, that brought on Nato's request for US airpower?

I would like to hear your answer on that, before any more moralizing by anyone.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Chris 62

The USA is a scapegoat, no matter what it does or says, it will be a target.

Garbage. Foreign policy decisions have consequences. Are you saying the US is impotent to change its foreign policy? Have you ever asked yourself why countries like France, a former coloniser, don't have the problems you have in the Middle East?

We learned a lesson about you people long ago, that method, which we now call apeasment, doen't work, and only leads to real disaster.

How do you explain your incessant appeasement of Israel then? This is at the root of all your problems in the ME, once a very sleepy part of the world. But I agree, your appeasement of Israel will lead to real disaster.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Garbage. Foreign policy decisions have consequences. Are you saying the US is impotent to change its foreign policy? Have you ever asked yourself why countries like France, a former coloniser, don't have the problems you have in the Middle East?

I don't have to ask, i altready know the answer.
They have brown-nosed the arab world for decades, and sold them whatever they wanted, reguardless of consequences.
As long as La Belle France' makes a profit, the world can go hang.
Nice try horsey, but no dice.

How do you explain your incessant appeasement of Israel then? This is at the root of all your problems in the ME, once a very sleepy part of the world. But I agree, your appeasement of Israel will lead to real disaster.

The fact that we won't let our Muslim friends exterminate them really bugs you, dosn't it?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Chris 62

The fact that we won't let our Muslim friends exterminate them really bugs you, dosn't it?

Again showing your ignorance. There was peaceful coexistence between Jews, Christians and Muslims for centuries.

[The Mad Monk]

Which centuries?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Which centuries?

IIRC, it was before the Brits showed up. If anyone deserves a good share of the blame for the current state of the ME it is them.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Again showing your ignorance. There was peaceful coexistence between Jews, Christians and Muslims for centuries.

Horsey boy, if anyone's slip is showing, it's yours with that assinine statement.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Just keep this kind of thing up and you'll be having WTC #2 soon enough...

I look forward to seeing your crocodile tears then, too. Well, unless WTC #2 happens to rear its ugly head in Britain or some other European country. Then it will be I who will shed genuine tears for you.

Al-Qaida and its sympathizers hate *all* of Western civilization. In due time Europe, too, shall pay its price in flesh and blood. They might not even spare that part of the world even if it bends over and takes it up the anus.

The fact is that you are allowing the fates of a few score Al Qaeda tarnish your World reputation as a fair and justice minded country - they are winning, you are allowing the Al Qaeda to show the rest of the World en masse what they already believe...

I heard we're using cattle prods and guillotines on the uncooperative ones now, MOBIUS. Do you think the almighty World of yours will get its knickers twisted even tighter?

I get the distinct impression, MOBIUS, that you want to baby those who would take your life — and others — without a second glance. Many nations — indeed, individuals — out there in the world would torture and kill *anyone* who attacked them in such a manner as what happened in New York, Washington, D.C., and Pennsylvania on Sept. 11, 2001. Don't try to deny it, because the only way I'll *ever* believe it not true is when thousands die in a single day and a cry for vengeful justice doesn't go up.

The United States has its own method. It neither coddles nor tortures those who are in its custody in this particular war. The Bush administration is actually using a balanced approach when it comes to the prisoners in its custody. Such an approach seems to aggravate those who subscribe to the "softie" approach and the "hard" approach. Thus threads like this one pop up. I'm waiting for threads to pop up that say we should blow al-Qaida prisoners' heads off w/o recourse. Something like that would get deleted, of course, or locked.

Who cares whether you feel justified in meting out this punishment - to the rest of the World it's just another example of the disdain with which America treats the rest of the World!

This "World" you talk about MOBIUS sure sounds faint-hearted. If what we're doing to prisoners in Cuba is giving the "World" the quivers, I suggest that it can always bury its head deeper — ala an ostrich — so as not to be so unnerved by America's barbarous behavior.

The crazy thing is that I have been saying the same thing since the first time I came on this forum - the rest of the World can only take so much of this sh*t before it strikes back! Over a year ago I actually warned you guys that you would be the victims of a domestic terror campaign and I was laughed at by many of you because you didn't think it possible!

It's going to happen in Europe, too. Just give it time.

Well, it happened!

Yep, it did. Europe, too, is going to be rocked by massive terrorist attacks eventually. Mark my words, MOBIUS, it's going to happen.

Don't worry, though, for I'm sure a way will be found to pin the blame on America for the attacks. Perhaps for our arrogance in daring to respond in the manner we have against terrorism post-Sept. 11? It'd never cross the mind of many Europeans that they got suckerpunched because they're decadent Westerners, would it?

This isn't "I told you so", it's 'I'm telling you so' - it will happen again if you continue this brash arrogance!

Whereas American "arrogance" allegedly caused the events of Sept. 11 — I tend to think it happpened because bin Laden and al-Qaida hates the Western world — it will be Europe's perceived feebleness that will lead to its being struck. Oh, wait, the terrorists thought America was feeble, too, 'cause we didn't do enough to stop them. And if they thought we were feeble, you can only imagine what they think of Europe (other than it being party central for terror cells).

...The Serbs were guilty of nothing more than fighting Albanian insurgents within their own country - albeit extremely heavy handedly! But not moreso than how the US has behaved in Afghanistan IMO...

Whatever. Show me civilians intentionally gunned down by Americans in Afghanistan and maybe I'll indulge your contribution above with something other than .

For this, their entire country was smashed! For the actions of a minority, the entire population suffered and continues to suffer! In that one act America made the lifelong enemies of an entire nation - not just those that were committing the crimes!

So if America was ever seized by a fanatical religious group that gave shelter to, say, the Ku Klux Klan, who then raised hell on those "sub-humans" in Africa and those "blasphemous" Catholics across the world, you wouldn't hold America responsible? Just those in power, right? The World wouldn't dare interfere if those suffering were black Americans and Catholics, right?

Poppycock. The world would do the same damn thing America is now doing in Afghanistan. Because if it didn't, it would only be a matter of time before it was either conquered or held hostage by American religious fundamentalism.

BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, MOBIUS, ordinary Afghans were suffering long before evil Americans annhilated whole cities with thermonuclear weapons. If they do indeed hate as deep as say they do, then I imagine us evil Americans are third or fourth on the list. After all, wouldn't the Russians, the mujhadeen and Taliban be higher up than us?

She said that many in Serbia were very happy when 11-9 happened and that at best the prevailing opinion on the street was that America got what it had coming to it...

Well, hallujah! Maybe we should give a suitcase nuke to some Albanian and set him or her loose in Serbia, eh? After all, they'd get what was coming to 'em, right? It'd sure be a shame to see half of Belgrade disappear in a nuclear flame. I'm sure quite a few Albanian-Americans would hold the "prevailing opinion on the street that Serbia got what it had coming to it."

So, either learn from your mistakes - or maybe you'll be the first nation to experience a terrorist nuke going off in one of your ports or what have you.

How about you get past your naivete and realize that you're just as much a target as any American is, MOBIUS? You can sit on your high horse and bellyache about how arrogant and dumb Americans are, but the flame of terrorism will scorch you black just as it has us.

You can start with giving the prisoners at Bat Guano Bay some shelter from the elements - even if it's a f***ing transparent portacabin!!!

Well, gee whiz. If you'd been reading the news reports, you'd realize that what's housing the prisoners now is temporary. They're building four-walled and roofed *permanent* holding cells even as this is written. I know MtG mentioned it in one of his posts, so you either overlooked it or are in ignorance of that little tidbit.

CYBERAmazon

[Alexander's Horse]

Pearls to SWINE!

[DinoDoc]

Is that the best you can do?

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

[Alexander's Horse]

I recall now what the Cuba situation reminds me of now - it was those pathetic images of U.S. Teheran embassy staff in 1979. Hooded, hand cuffed, being led around by revolutionary guards.

I remember the quite right howls of protest at that too

[David Floyd]

I thought the other day you were saying you'd never bend to military discipline.

Not if I was drafted, no. In an all volunteer army, though, if you're in you're all the way in, because it was your choice, and if you **** up you're putting everyone at risk.