60 minutes goes McCarthyist

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MarkG
let's bomb it then! we'll surely get them!

I'm sure that the Turks would be more than willing to help you in that enterprise.

I notice that you didn't bother to come up eith a real answer to my point though. Was this thread meant to be a pity paty for the Greek government getting emberassed at thier own incompetence?

[Bereta_Eder]

fighting imran

Yes. I do realize it. But maybe you don't realize that the whole broadcasting was based mainly on US information coming from high level governmental people. Like the former US ambassador to Greece.

This is the propaganda war the US government wants to play against Greece. When CBS or any other media goes to the government for info, the government is going to say these things and this sort of slander to the media.

Officially the US government will deny that it supports such allegations.

Also note that these comments come from FORMER US governmental people. That means that the US cannot be held accountable for their positions since they are no longer on the government's payroll.


It's basic propaganda orchistrated seminars. You should know better than make such observations



Dinodoc,

the Greek government is in no way embarassed or in a difficult position because of 17N. And that's because this organization basically poses no problems to the greek people.

So there is no INTERNAL pressure whatsoever to catch it.

External pressure exists. But it is translated by th egreek media and the greek people as "bullying" Hellas. This is, naturally, counter - productive.

The fact is that there is no serious problem and that 17N is used by the US as a pressure tool for achieving other aims as I have mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

The greek government has accepted the co-operation of both CIA and Scotland Yard. Yet none have been able to do find anything.


Your remarks about Turkey are a clear indicationof US policy (and maybe a reason why 17N is seen as no threat compared to the US)



Also to you rests the burden of proving that 17N is not CIA - related as so many things have been in the past.


edit: and something that should have been obvious to you. Anti-americanism raises 3 fold after such attacks on our government and on our country. And rightly so INMO. (anger because this propaganda can be used for other very dangerous for Greece concessions)

Also, the fact that CBS didn't broadcast nothing of the greek foreign minister 80 MINUTES interview and the fact that it portrays the head of the parliement as an "anti-american" and a "nationalist" and asks him wether he supports the actions of 17N should made you blush... Basically it was a US monologue with no arguments from the other side.


BAH!

Ôé Ý÷åéò ÃéÜííç ìïõ; Ôá'÷á ðÜíôá

[MarkG]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Also, the fact that CBS didn't broadcast nothing of the greek foreign minister 80 MINUTES interview and the fact that it portrays the head of the parliement as an "anti-american" and a "nationalist" and asks him wether he supports the actions of 17N should made you blush... Basically it was a US monologue with no arguments from the other side.

when contacted by a greek tv station, a representative of CBS characterized the report as "fair" and said that "CBS does not discuss it's editorial policies"....

it's lovely when journalists refuse to respond to criticism about their work, isnt it?

Ôé Ý÷åéò ÃéÜííç ìïõ; Ôá'÷á ðÜíôá

íá ó÷ïëéáóù ôéò "õðåñçöáíåò" äçëùóåéò óçìéôç; áóôï êáëõôåñá...

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by MarkG
when contacted by a greek tv station, a representative of CBS characterized the report as "fair" and said that "CBS does not discuss it's editorial policies"....

it's lovely when journalists refuse to respond to criticism about their work, isnt it?

That's because they don't have any real presure. This is in part because Greece is a small country with no real power to hussle the US (except oppose things in NATO with great cost though or swifting EU policies to protect itself however little it can do that).

And also in part because the US government unofficially backs up these sort of slander (actually encourages it) for the reasons we know all too well.

íá ó÷ïëéáóù ôéò "õðåñçöáíåò" äçëùóåéò óçìéôç; áóôï êáëõôåñá...

Áóôï íá ðÜåé Üóôï! Êáé ï Ôóå ðïõ åßðå íá êÜíïõìå ìÞíõóç ãéá óõêïöáíôßá ðñïöáíþò äåí ãíùñßæåé üôé ôï áðïôÝëåóìá èá åßíáé 20ðëÜóéá áíÜëïãá ñåðïñôÜæ ìå ôç óõíÝíåóç ôùí ÇÐÁ Áðü ôçí Üëëç âÝâáéá... áí åßóáé Ýôïéìáò íá äþóåéò ìÜ÷ç ßóùò ÉÓÙÓ âãåé óå êáëü.

×åó'ôïõò! ÌáèçìÝíá ôá âïõíÜ áð'ôá ÷éüíéá... (êáëÜ ôï'÷ù ñßîåé óôéò ðáñïéìßåò ìå ôá ìðïýíéá ôåëåõôáßá )

[Imran Siddiqui]

Like I said before... ain't slander if its true.

I still don't understand why this makes 60 minutes McCarthyist though?

[Bereta_Eder]

It isn't

McCarthist?

Seeing commies where there aren't any for starters

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Seeing commies where there aren't any for starters

Perhaps they are looking at you.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola


Perhaps they are looking at you.

A fine example of what I've said.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
So there is no INTERNAL pressure whatsoever to catch it.

I think that is what I've been saying. That the Greek government/people are giving a criminal organization that opperates within thier borders thier tacit support. Why are you argueing with me if you agree with me? It makes no sense.

Also to you rests the burden of proving that 17N is not CIA - related as so many things have been in the past.

You're the one making the affirmative claim. The burden of proof rests on you.

(anger because this propaganda can be used for other very dangerous for Greece concessions)

If you didn't have such an incompetent and unprofessional police force & a population giving its tacit support to a criminal organization, you wouldn't have anything to be ashamed of when it comes time for people to ask you to make these phantom concessions.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think that is what I've been saying. That the Greek government/people are giving a criminal organization that opperates within thier borders thier tacit support. Why are you argueing with me if you agree with me? It makes no sense.

Because you claim that there is a problem. 17N is nothing compared to other organizations and yet you portate it to be more dangerous than Bin Laden. (way before 11 Sept.)

You are doing that in order to have a trading tool to pressure Greece in consessions to other matters that are important to you. What can't you get from these?

Besides 17N killed the torturers of the US supported Junta. So in my eyes the US is a far worst threat than the 17N could ever be for Greece. (as is proven and could be proven again).

When you talk about Greece you should hang your head in shame and be quite. That is if you have any decency!!!


edit: Oh, and a minor point. The government isn't giving support to 17N are you crazy? It does what it can to catch it along with CIA and Scotland Yard help. But none of those three is good enough for 17N.

You're the one making the affirmative claim. The burden of proof rests on you.

CIA interference is well documented. The burden of prooving 17N is not yet another american pawn is also yours.

If you didn't have such an incompetent and unprofessional police force & a population giving its tacit support to a criminal organization, you wouldn't have anything to be ashamed of when it comes time for people to ask you to make these phantom concessions.

You inflate a minor situation into a gigantic "problem" for your own goals. And you get it wrong again. I am not ashamed (are you kidding me? ashamed in front of what? a yankee?) I am angry by your dirty tricks and your badmouthing of my country.


Besides, CIA should never have been permitted to "assist" Greek police considering its past activities- this is a big humiliation for Greece INMO.

Scotland Yard is another matter.


Phantom consessions? Is it a phantom consession that the US is turning a blind eye to Turkey's aspirations of conquering half the Aegean? And the US pressure to Greece to accept it? (just an exampl ethere are more but that's the most important).

[Bereta_Eder]

From another perspective:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
If you didn't have such an incompetent and unprofessional police force

I refrain from judging the US police. It has a lot to look after. (from school shootings to antrax letters, white supremacists and Binnie). It's a sick society you have there

a population giving its tacit support to a criminal organization

I don't like the US government either!

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW, Dino, if you want (and are capable of ) a serious discussion about this issue without aphorisms, condemnations, exagerations and so on (from me or you) I'll be glad to have one.


But before this: a government of an Allied to you country is being accused of basicaly supporting terrorism in front of tens of millions of people. The head of that country's parliement is insulted.

And this government doesn't get a chance to address these tens of millions of people and respond?

How democratic is that? (don't answer)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Because you claim that there is a problem.

I claim that there is an organization who opperates solely within the sovereign territory of Greece who sees nothing wrong with murderering people to achieve its ends and that the Greek people seem to support them in thier goals.

17N is nothing compared to other organizations and yet you portate it to be more dangerous than Bin Laden. (way before 11 Sept.)

No one is claiming that Greece has the world's worst terrorist problem. What is being claimed here is that they have the world's worst counter-terrorist problem and you've done nothing to prove that assumption wrong despite being given the chance to do so.

CIA interference is well documented.

Which is irrelevent to Greek incompetance wrt dealing with 17N until you actually provide some evidence to the contrary.

I am not ashamed (are you kidding me? ashamed in front of what? a yankee?) I am angry

Which is a symptom of being shamed.

by your dirty tricks and your badmouthing of my country.

Rationalizations for shame.

Besides, CIA should never have been permitted to "assist" Greek police considering its past activities- this is a big humiliation for Greece INMO.

Why is it humiliating? There is no shame in admitting that you are incapable of doing anything about investigating 17N.

And the US pressure to Greece to accept it? (just an exampl ethere are more but that's the most important).

Until you can show me how this is related to the "vile propaganda" regarding 17N, I will continue to call these phantom concessions.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I claim that there is an organization who opperates solely within the sovereign territory of Greece who sees nothing wrong with murderering people to achieve its ends and that the Greek people seem to support them in thier goals.

This is a misconception. The Greek people do NOT support it. They are basically apathetic because:

_it doesn't threaten them
_it is very rarely active (it has killed 27 people -high ranking politicians and military ppeople - in over 25 years)
_it was sympathetic to it because it was part of a struggle to bring down the dictatorship.

No one is claiming that Greece has the world's worst terrorist problem. What is being claimed here is that they have the world's worst counter-terrorist problem and you've done nothing to prove that assumption wrong despite being given the chance to do so.

These are supossition on your part. Browse up the thread. Other countries including the USA had to spend that much time and more in order to catch these kind of groups.

Having said that, I consent that the Greek police is far from competent in that regard of getting 17N.

Which is irrelevent to Greek incompetance wrt dealing with 17N until you actually provide some evidence to the contrary.

It is relevant (see first responce)

Which is a symptom of being shamed.

Nope. Because there really isn;t anything to be ashamed for in this regard.

Rationalizations for shame.

see previous answer.

Why is it humiliating? There is no shame in admitting that you are incapable of doing anything about investigating 17N.

I said without accusations, exagerations or condamnations. If you still resort to these I w'll have to do the same...

As for the CIA their inclusion to the search has had no result. I guess you can say they are as much in the dark as we are. 9except of course if 17N and CIA is one and the same - show me proof that they are not)
And it is humiliating because the only correct responce in everything the CIA says or wants to do in Greece should be : **** you

Until you can show me how this is related to the "vile propaganda" regarding 17N, I will continue to call these phantom concessions.

You still have to show me the greek's ineptitude and the seriousness of the problem. I see no such proofs.

The US pressure in yielding to Turkish demands is also not a ghost.

Just say that NATO will intervene if Turkey attacks. Will you do that? It's that simple...

Nope. Instead you turn a blind eye to countless turkish air vioations of greek air space and the blackmailing of Turkey to the euro-army.

In Cyprus you also didn;t interve but actually facilitated it. Why won't it happen again?

Not what I want from my US ally... that or the propaganda

[Sprayber]

Are all Greeks this paranoid?

MarkG: What is this obsession with CBS? First you disrespect Andy Rooney(America's foremost authority on all things Greek) and now you want to go after the whole network. It's no wonder you guys put those poor innocent Brits in jail for merely looking at airplanes.