60 minutes goes McCarthyist

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Are all Greeks this paranoid?

Cypriotes were also paranoid?

The air violations are nothing to be concerned about?

Turkey threatening with war every couple of months is also paranoid?


Learn the facts Sprayber or I'll call you paranoid for fearing terrorist attacks in the US

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by paiktis22


This is a misconception. The Greek people do NOT support it. They are basically apathetic because:

_it doesn't threaten them
_it is very rarely active (it has killed 27 people -high ranking politicians and military ppeople - in over 25 years)
_it was sympathetic to it because it was part of a struggle to bring down the dictatorship.

So as long as they kill non Greeks, they are ok? And you guys call the Turks barbarians.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by paiktis22



Cypriotes were also paranoid?

The air violations are nothing to be concerned about?

Turkey threatening with war every couple of months is also paranoid?


Learn the facts Sprayber or I'll call you paranoid for fearing terrorist attacks in the US

this is why we go after terrorists and not casually dismis them as nothing. What happens when this groups decides that their message, whatever the hell that is, would best me made by killing Greeks and destroying buildings. It would kind of be too late then wouldn't it. And before someone says well America did it too. It was damned stupid for us to ignore the things that we did just as stupid as it is for you to ignore them just because they kill ever so often.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Sprayber


So as long as they kill non Greeks, they are ok? And you guys call the Turks barbarians.

Most of their kills have been of greeks.

The greek people are not afraid of them.

As to non greeks... the same with non americans. You deplore the deaths of the hundrends of afgani civilians. same here for the 27 deaths (not the fascists though). Although the greeks are NOT responsible for their deaths. It is not our army that killed them. It is 17N.


And don't forget: 27 kills in 25 years many of which were Junta fascists. That's basically an INACTIVE group.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Sprayber


this is why we go after terrorists and not casually dismis them as nothing. What happens when this groups decides that their message, whatever the hell that is, would best me made by killing Greeks and destroying buildings. It would kind of be too late then wouldn't it. And before someone says well America did it too. It was damned stupid for us to ignore the things that we did just as stupid as it is for you to ignore them just because they kill ever so often.

Agreed.


with a pointer: mass murder is NOT the profile of 17N.

This organisation is EXTREMELY careful NOT to anger the greek public in any way.


An example: when that brit attachee was killed? It was in the MIDDLE OF HUGE greek resentment for the role of Britain and the US in the bombings of Serbia. You can say 17N does PR...

Of course noone was "satisfied" that a guy was killed. This is not the way. But it didn't produce panic or anything like that.


And I agree with you only if I take for granted that the US is not behind this...

That phrase of one of your presidents in the Cold War" **** your constitution and **** your democracy" to a greek ambassador a little while before the military dictatorship was established tends to stick in memory...

But this is not certified by the american side so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


However the american ambassador praising the dictatorship in western media also sticks in memory for ever.

[Bereta_Eder]

In short the primary danger for Greece is not terrorism. It's those who threaten her with war often and to this very day. Namely Turkey. US actions which are pro turkish bring concern too.

We have lessons of history and I accept that the US had its own agenda, namely containing the Red threat.

Noone is the "enemy" and noone is "evil" but let's get our priorities straight here. For the present.

[Bereta_Eder]

and I'll tell you something else.

INMO the Greek government hasn't played its cards right.

Let's see the facts here.

We have a terrorist organization. Many of our most important allies are pissed off with it. It is in the best interest of Greece to break it. We gain nothing from having it anymore. The Junta is gone. (altough some may say that that is like betraying old comrades who, in any case, have gone really bad).

How will this be done since they are a VERY closed group maybe with no more than 10 people.

And they are EXTREMELY educated, propably of very high society standing and unbelievably organised.

They have/had contacts with every major european terrorist group from The Red Brigandes to Carlos.

They almost never screw up and our police does all the time.

Get the CIA in. We did. The Scotland Yard also volunteered. They are in as well.

WHY isn't it caught yet? Because it is damn hard to get them!

You can put as much pressure as you like but that's the fact!

As to weather someone inside the greek government has relationship with them?

Maybe.

That doesn't mean that the government supports it! Come on!

Help if you want. But american reportages badmouthing Greece tends to flare up anti-american passion (for the reasons I explained earlier) and is COUNTER - PRODUCTIVE!


CBS silly and bigoted reportage helped 17N...


but don't listen to me, get an "objective" description

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020108/pl/greece_usa_dc_1.html

[MarkG]

paiktis, it's really simple(to think like dinodoc): if you're not arresting 5 people per day (only to release them later) you're not doing your job as a police force...

ðáñåðéðôùíôïò, ç 17Í äåí õðçñ÷å êáôá ôçò äéáñêåéá ôçò ÷ïõíôáò êáé ìïíï 2-3 áðï ôá èõìáôá çôáí ÷ïõíôéêïé


Sprayber, fact: CBS interviewed 4 greek politicians for the report and only included a couple of seconds of one of them, cut and translated with a totally different meaning...

[Roland]

Again: Greek police may be unable or unwilling, who knows. But if you have a small ideology driven group of maybe 5-10 people that strike once per year, it is extremely difficult to get them. Such groups are usually cracked by inspector Dumbluck.

Don't know how the americans see this, but Foxnews is not much different from the CBS and co. It's just more blunt about being crappy and chauvinistic.

[Berzerker]

íá ó÷ïëéáóù ôéò "õðåñçöáíåò" äçëùóåéò óçìéôç; áóôï êáëõôåñá

Why don't you guys enter the modern world and get a real alphabet

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Roland
Don't know how the americans see this, but Foxnews is not much different from the CBS and co. It's just more blunt about being crappy and chauvinistic.

Don't let CBS hear you compare them to FOX

I won't defend CBS cause I don't watch them. Most of their reporters seems too arrogant to me. But don't think your case is special. They treat most of their stories like this.

I was just kind of curious about some of the earlier statements about no one caring about N17. N17 seems to be a touchy subject among our Greek posters since it always brings up strong feelings, but then again so does just about everything else.
paiktis22, who happens to be a good friend, talks about them as if they are a romantic group. Freedom fighters gone bad or something of the sort. But otherwise they are simply dismissed as if any criticism is an insult to the Greek people. I don't think that the US government is using N17 as an excuse to slander Greece or trying to undermine their security. Just because N17 isn't racking up an impressive body count doesn't mean they aren't dangerous and don't need to be caught. You guys aren't the only country that has had trouble catching people like this. But don't dismiss the criticisms as merely propaganda.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/correspondent/europe/newsid_1205000/1205893.stm

Apparently CBS isn't the only organization that questions Greece's commitment to catch these people.

[Roland]

"Don't let CBS hear you compare them to FOX"

Same with NBC and CNN US. I only got CBS news a couple years ago.

To me, their journalistic claim suppsoedly setting them apart from FOX is like that of the brothel owner being a businessman, and who'll beat you up when you call him a pimp.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Just because N17 isn't racking up an impressive body count doesn't mean they aren't dangerous and don't need to be caught

who said anything different?
the issue is the kind and the rate of coverage given to the issue by western media

But don't dismiss the criticisms as merely propaganda.

criticism is best when followed by
a) facts and evidence not vague statements like "i think we told who we believed to be writing the declarations"
b) the other side's opinion

the cbs report didnt contain any of it....



on the bbc report: 10 words quoted by the greek justice minister, 76 by a former cia man...

[Roland]

Look, this kind of news is made like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/09/opinion/09DOWD.html

(need to register I think)


They'll put on what sells. If people want to hear that crime rates in Austria are higher than in south central LA, they'll say it. If it sells in the wake of sept 11th that Greece is a state sponsor of terrorism, they'll say it. If it sells that the earth is flat and demons live in the 4 corners of it, they'll say it.

Just watch it for the farce it is.

[Fiera]

Pardon my jumping in, but on the ETA point:

No one could possibly blame the Spanish government (or the French, for this matter) of being lax with ETA. The Aznar government are putting their greatest effort in eliminate ETA through the "policial?" way, that is, through arresting their members, rather than through political (both secret or public) talks. Same goes for France, who had had very recently a gendarme killed and several wounded by ETA members.

But you could blame the Basque government of being lax with ETA. Let's not forget that the autonomous Basque police is dependant on the Basque government, so the Spanish police is not completely free to act in the Basque country. A quite difficult situation.