Call for an EU-wide pupil- and studentstrike

[Jon Miller]

The US college university system is decent

especially considering how lousy the public high school and elementary schools are

it needs fixed, but for costs it is a good basis

Jon Miller

[Timexwatch]

Question:

Does England or the EU have the same diversity in education as the U.S. in terms of the sheer number of choices among state, private and community colleges? PH is making it sound like the only worthwhile education that can be obtained is from expensive schools...







...p.s. My parents both went to state schools and now, at the age of 43, can afford to send me to the third most expensive school in the U.S.

[Giant_Squid]

Wow...the Euros apparently don't know how lucky they have it so far. Good for these students for sticking up for education as a human concept rather than an economic one.
It's interesting to hear that the Euros are considering changing their system to try and offset a perceived US advantage at the same time we're constantly considering changing our system to offset a perceived European advantage. Granted, it's for different parts of education, but it still seems like someone up there is confused.

[Roland]

Most european university systems are undergoing some hefty changes, but there is no EU policy forced on them. I can tell from my own experience in Austria that most of it is coming from braindead national bureaucracies who wouldn't know a market if they were sold on it.

On the EU level, there is the Bologna process, but that one wouldn't stop a member state from enacting pinko lefty concepts at heart's desire. And the GATS thingie is pushed by some leftists, but I cannot ever see the provision that would require what they fear.

For the economic aspect of education - there's two sides to it. One is for the consumer, the other as an investment. On the investment side I do not see market mechanisms that could fully work, but I suppose that's for another debate.

Dan:

"A very high %-age of Americans go to university (the figure is something like 50% now, ~30% graduating). Those universities are high quality, even though they have to teach the average person."

I used to think only about 10 % of your tertiary education institutions are of high quality. But in the absence of a clear measure for that, wouldn't you agree that the differences in quality among those institutions are huge ?

Timexwatch:

"Does England or the EU have the same diversity in education as the U.S. in terms of the sheer number of choices among state, private and community colleges? PH is making it sound like the only worthwhile education that can be obtained is from expensive schools..."

Quite substantial differences from country to country. Most direct comparisons are pointless as for example in Austria, we have a specialisation in high school that is roughly what your college education is for you, and the tertiary sector is relatively small as a consequence. Most tertiary education is part of the public sector here, but comes in many forms... if you take interest-adjusted life income, there is not much difference between secondary and tertiary education overall (with a wild variation according to professions, naturally).

Giant_Squid:

"It's interesting to hear that the Euros are considering changing their system to try and offset a perceived US advantage..."

Well, while it is overhyped, there is a real weakness in most of our systems, and that is selection at the top. Most systems are set up for broad research and education, and doing that job quite well, but a couple of US style "we want a nobel prize - how much?" pools wouldn't exactly hurt us...

[Az]

damn... makes you think ...
Despite the whining in my country for expensive education, in Israel , university fees are 7500 NIS (approx. 1700$) per year...
and going down...

I think EU really should reconsider some of it's educational policies , BUT NOT IN THIS AREA ! a good example of a need for change is that stupid system of admission in France . ( is it the same in the whole EU ? ?? )

[*End Is Forever*]

What Infatuation doesn't seem to realise is quite the extent to which his own course is subsidised... perhaps he should consider whether he would himself be at University if he was stumping up £10,000+ a year in tuition fees alone.

[Bereta_Eder]

I didn't have time to read throught it all but I would nevertheless wish to make my own modest observation:

education remains free or the whole bordello will be burned to the ground along with Infatuation.

I hope I made myself clear

[Sprayber]

It seems that going on strike is becomming an EU passtime. The one thing that binds the continent together.

One of these days the good ole EU higher ups will wise up and start cracking some heads when you guys go on strike.

One more thing. Don't you have to work to be able to go on strike. If you don't go to school, then you are just skipping. No skin off the teachers back or the admin. It's not like the students will stay out long. Cause just like Paul Hanson, they will start to look out for themselves. Which is the way you are supposed to do.

Don't be such a hippie
go to class and learn
don't be organizing stuff

[Bereta_Eder]

Where did you get those smilies from Sprayber


There's a fine balance to achieve here between studying and being involved in matters of society. It is all part of being a student.

While all you do is study, the lawmakers and bureocrats of this world are working to maximise the profits of the rich. What possible GOOD can come out of making more private universities instead of lobbying hard for the amelioration of public ones.

Education is free. And should remain so. It is one of the fundamental rights of every civilized society.

BTW, have a read about the "honors" awarded to Harvard students in July... 91% of the students got one (we can't risk losing all those tuition fees now can we? ) And while noone can arguwe that Harvard is mediocre this is a trend that has ebcome a desease in most private american colleges and universities.

Sorry but here it's Europe. Free education is a right

[Seneca]

Well, here in Britain almost everyone gets an honours degree - only the lowest form of pass (below a third) doesn't earn it.
So people who go around putting B.A. (Hons.) after their name are practically screaming "I didn't even get a 2.2, and this is the only way I can make it look good".

And just about the only way to fail a degree is to not show up for the exams...

[Solly]

What Infatuation doesn't seem to realise is quite the extent to which his own course is subsidised... perhaps he should consider whether he would himself be at University if he was stumping up £10,000+ a year in tuition fees alone.

Ceteris paribus, or...? Because we know that if we were paying that much for uni education, the tax take would need to be lower; hence I would recoup the difference (between what I am paying now and £10k/year) in my working life due to the marginally lower tax take. Or my parents would have recouped it in their working life in order to pay the difference.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Sprayber
It seems that going on strike is becomming an EU passtime. The one thing that binds the continent together.

One of these days the good ole EU higher ups will wise up and start cracking some heads when you guys go on strike.

One more thing. Don't you have to work to be able to go on strike. If you don't go to school, then you are just skipping. No skin off the teachers back or the admin. It's not like the students will stay out long. Cause just like Paul Hanson, they will start to look out for themselves. Which is the way you are supposed to do.

Don't be such a hippie
go to class and learn
don't be organizing stuff

As opposed to the US where the workers and students just accept everything the government and corporations throw their way?

[Bereta_Eder]

I find one wrong situation in public education and that is motivation.

Motivation of both the proffessors and also the students.

While it is by no means guaranteed that you will pass an exam merely by showing up things in other areas need to be improved in Greece and all of those have to do with the lack of motivation.

One is the "free - span of education". Once you are accepted to a uni you can take forever to finish it if you want. So I could be 70 and still be studying in the uni I was admitted to. This has to change. 3 tries and you're over. If you don't pass your lessons in 3 tries go do something else with your life. Choose another Uni or stop studying. (like it is in Belgium for example).

There are cases where there are state of the art research equipment left for dead in the basements of Uni buldings. No on bothers to bring them up to scientific production. So the state has paid good money for research equipment and just because some proffessors are too lazy to get off their butts it stays unexploited.

The proffessors need to abandon their "security feeling". No more permanant positions in Unis. No more clicks and no more - under the table - negotiations. Proffessors need to be more motivated or their jobs are gone. Frequent evaluation of their work, attandance, performance and so on. They fulfill it or goodbye.

The good functioning system cannot be left up to the good will of some proffessors in some universities.

For example the University of Crete is breaking every record there is. (from selling prototype recording equipment to NASA and the russian space agency to new AIDS medecin reserach). And that's just because sokme proffessors and students had the good will to exploit all that the state is offering them.

This should not be only on a voluntery basis. You exploit the state benefits or you're out of a job.
The universities of Athens and Thessaloniki are the most nomeclature infected there are. There are too many "authorities on the subject" and all they are good for is safekeeping their neat little preffessor sits.

Nanopoulos who is doing some ground breaking research on neuronics and functioning of the human brain has been declined the position of proffessor in a greek univeristy because "he wasn't qualified enough"? Come on . The man is a legend in his field in the US and yet he is not good enough for Greece? This is the sort of artirioschlerotic mental;ity that has to change.

There are many issues to be addressed in public education. Springing up more private unis for spoiled, lazy rich kids who want "honors" awarded to them for scrathing their ass is not the answer to the problem.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Sprayber
It seems that going on strike is becomming an EU passtime. The one thing that binds the continent together.

One of these days the good ole EU higher ups will wise up and start cracking some heads when you guys go on strike.

Funny you should mention it. The NY Times education page has two top stories: a wage conflict with some teachers still on strike, and this jewel as an extra:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/education/index.html

Middletown and Its Schools on Edge After Bitter Strike
By ROBERT HANLEY


IDDLETOWN, N.J., Dec. 10 — As teachers returned to classrooms here after a weeklong strike and mass jailings, there were small attempts today to soothe the bitterness. In many of the schools, parent- teacher groups put out coffee and trays of cookies as a welcome-back gesture.

But emotions remained raw over the strike and the jailing of about 230 school employees — the nation's first widespread incarceration of striking teachers since the late 1970's. The contract dispute that led to the walkout remains unresolved, and anger persists on all sides as a new court- appointed mediator prepares to begin overseeing negotiations between the union and school board, perhaps later this week.

The teachers, secretaries and other union members agreed on Friday to return to classes without a contract, and all of those jailed were released. Today, the school's superintendent, Jack DeTalvo, said about 95 percent of the 1,000 union members had come to work for the first time since Nov. 28 — about normal attendance for a regular day.

Little else was normal. At Middletown North High School, Ryan Oswin, a senior and member of the wrestling team, said his math teacher started weeping as she discussed her time in jail, and had to leave the classroom twice. Another teacher, he said, became "really defensive" and started snapping at students. Yet another, he went on, said the jailhouse tedium of scrubbing toilets was humiliating.

Charles Best, an English teacher at Middletown North who was jailed with his wife, Lori, for three days, rejected his students' overtures to talk about his incarceration.

"We've already lost enough instruction time," he said. "We just picked up where we left off in November."

But another English teacher, Mel Clifford, said the resumption of classes was a traumatic moment for both students and teachers.

"There was a lot of nervous laughter from students and some jokes," Ms. Clifford said. "The students didn't know what to say to us. They were confused and didn't understand."

Ms. Clifford said that last week's anxieties persisted today for her and many of her colleagues, and that they returned to class feeling like the "walking wounded."

"If you weren't in jail last week, you felt guilty," she said. "If you were in jail, you felt scared. And I feel we've all taken so much abuse we didn't deserve from residents. This job is difficult enough without that."

Four teachers said during contempt hearings in State Superior Court last week that they were so weary of the history of friction between the union and the school board that they would resign or retire. But only one submitted the necessary paperwork today, said Britt Raynor, a Board of Education member.

The end of the strike does not seem to have eased the anger of many residents in this sprawling suburban school district — the largest in Monmouth County, with 10,500 students and 17 schools.

Some high school seniors grumbled about college applications piling up on guidance counselors' desks. Others complained about having to sacrifice Saturday mornings or vacation days later in the school year to make up for the seven school days canceled by the strike.

And many parents continued to denounce the teachers.

"I think it was a disgrace," Bill Brown, 46, said as he waited to pick up his daughter, a freshman, after classes ended at Middletown North. "I think they all should have lost their jobs. They hurt the kids is all they did. And for what?"

Diana Fallon, a mother of four grown children, called the timing of the strike "horrendous," noting that 34 of Middletown's 61,000 residents were killed in the terrorist attack at the World Trade Center on Sept. 11. Since then, she said, other residents have lost their jobs in Manhattan's financial district or lost customary year-end financial bonuses.

"In light of all the losses people have suffered, they didn't have to do this now," Ms. Fallon said. "It's very divisive. You're either anti-teacher or pro-teacher. And people are worried now about their property values."

Ms. Fallon said she expected that many people would vote against a proposed $10.5 million bond issue in a special election on Tuesday because of resentment over the strike.

School officials say the money is needed to complete $75 million in renovations and additions started at the town's two high schools and three middle schools in the late 1990's.

Superintendent DeTalvo said that if voters did not approve the $10.5 million in new bonds, school officials would schedule another vote in January.

You should shut up, sit down and learn a bit from us about labour relations.

[DanS]

"I used to think only about 10 % of your tertiary education institutions are of high quality. But in the absence of a clear measure for that, wouldn't you agree that the differences in quality among those institutions are huge ?"

By tertiary, do you mean undergraduate/graduate? If so, no I wouldn't agree, but right now I'm basing my opinion on anecdotal evidence and educated guesses.

You would think that there would be a large quality difference, but I have every reason to believe that my education was nearly as good as an education at Harvard, even though Harvard cost more. In fact, I was able to have personalized instruction much more than Harvard students, so for me it was more valuable. One of my professors is still a good friend of mine.

Of course, the market doesn't reward a CUA graduate nearly as well as it does a Harvard graduate.