Call for an EU-wide pupil- and studentstrike

[Solly]

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S LIVES AND THIER OPPORTUNITIES. Why the hell should you get them rather than someone else just because you have rich parents?

There's no need to shout.

My parents aren't rich.

Even without handout after handout, you can still go to university.

And end up in huge debt, which poorer people can't afford to pay off

If they took a decent degree, they'd be able to pay it off once they start work, no problem.

Rather than mater and pater? Snob.

I'm the furthest from a snob anyone could be.

[axi]

Paul Hanson:

I have lost quite a lot of time into student syndicalism, these last 4 years and all of it has been for the sake of future generations.

I don't feel that I harmed my studies by this, since I would probably spend that time in Apolyton or in some computer game, otherwise. In fact I feel that I have learn alot about how society works, which I doubt I would have otherwise.

There remains of course the effect on my future life, which could be detrimental due to possible discriminations and layoffs from bosses etc, or helpful, due to better maturement of my personality. Where I come from, ex-student syndicalists tend to make a good career in politics and in the mechanisms of the state, but that is an option for traitors only.

As for the sucess of the strike, since this is happening for the first time in history and there is no pre-existant international student syndicalist organisation, our goals are limited. We may have figures by next week, after the Brussels events.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Infatuation
BOOHOO! I can't afford a personal jet...the government should buy me one!!

You know that the 'personal jet' is something totally irrelevent to the course of the debate, so quit your boorish tactics.

Good point. However, above a certain level (certainly before degree level) education ceases to become a merit good - think about it...if you entered the labour force as the only person with a degree standard education, your labour would be worth far more than now. As it is, tens of thousands get a degree and them getting a degree brings down your earnings by increasing the supply of people with a degree.

Rubbish. University still teaches skills that school in itself could never teach you. You have to be more self sufficient and do things for yourself. Hence a degree is far more valuable in the workplace than just A-Levels. It is a good sign that we have more graduates in a society, education is higher, more human capital in society.

Rich

That's my name

Why not? It's a good/service just like a house or car is. Expensive cars are the province of the rich but I don't hear you railing against that and saying everyone should have a Jaguar.

The two are not comparable. Someone who drives around in a jag is not an asset to society, will not perform some vital role, will not be on the cutting edge just because he drives a car. Education is not just a personal investment, it is an investment in society to improve the human capital of society. When will you stop comparing apples and oranges. The two are not the same!

Some might argue that it's only if the talent isn't there that the person should spend longer in education. Something to think about.

No, education should be accessible to all and the education should be tailored to the needs and abilities of that person. Some things do not suit others, but peoples talents can lie elsewhere. How will we know what talent is there if we waste it and don't give them an equal chance with the rest of society?

This shows even if you don't have huge financial backing, you can still go to university.

Yeah, and be crippled for the rest of your life. For some it will mean they cannot get to university if they need to secure loans and can't get them, or their education may suffer if they have to work the rest of the time to keep themselves in university.

What a bunch of whiners in this thread, demanding their government give them everything.

Do you have a private health plan Stew? Are you paying your own private pension? No, I didn't think so. Quite the hypocrite act, stop acting like a spoiled brat. Do you think I would have got to university without government funding? Do you? And would you consider me to be a 'good investment' for a nation? You make me sick at times, just because your parents are rolling in money doesn't mean everyone else is. Welcome to the real world Stew, enjoy your stay

[WhiteElephants]

These guidelines of neo-liberalism are postulated as the way to full employment and social justice. What a mistake. Drastically the U.S. example reveals, where this way will lead to: In spite of an ecomomic boom in the 90´s, in spite of low unemployment rates, in spite of the worlds most developed information and communication technologies, in spite of first-class universities the average level of education is miserable. In the following society is falling apart in productive and unproductive "human resources". A neo-liberal caste system with no escape for the uneducated new proletariat is developing. Since the caste of the educated just needs restricted human resources access to this class has to be elité. "Modern" foreigner-policy shows where this way is leading to: Green-cards for the caste of the educated, deportation for useless human resources.

Interestingly enough he makes an excellent case here for privatizing education, as he seems woefully unaware that the majority of the United States' lack of education is the product of state and/or federal run institutions (a.k.a. our public school systems). It appears America, as well as Europe, is feeling the pinch of the scholastic bueracries foibles they have instituted.

The fact of the matter is that unlike a vaccination you can't just give someone an education, they have to want it first, and anyone over the USA has the resources available to get the education they disire. The problem lies in fostering the desire, a desire that our public education sysytem is painfully inadequete at nurturing.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
The fact of the matter is that unlike a vaccination you can't just give someone an education, they have to want it first, and anyone over the USA has the resources available to get the education they disire. The problem lies in fostering the desire, a desire that our public education sysytem is painfully inadequete at nurturing.

Really? The cost of your education would be just beyond reason to many of your citizens, who would never be able to conceive being able to pay such a sum of money. Thus the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. But it is very easy for you to espouse 'the American way' when you can quite comfortably function within the system. When you can turn a blind eye to those who can't function effectively. I don't see equal opportunities for all, I see those who have money can afford education and the money it brings. Talk about a divided society.

[Admiral]

In regards to the claim that education is on the same level as a fancy car, and is the province of the rich, i say that that cannot be farther from the truth.
As has been proven many times in history, when the gap between the rich and the poor becomes too great, the status quo collapses. Education is a major part of that gap. Without education, only the most low-paying jobs are available. Furthermore, this education gap leads to an inability to fill positions between the manual laborer and the executive: essentially, the most critical part of our infrastructure would no longer exist.
Currently, a significant amount of people in public education would not be able to pay for private education. By forcing them to pay more than a token fee, you are denying the very possibility of escaping poverty.
Latly, in regards to the claim that public education is inadequet, it would be better to improve the system not do away with it.

[DanS]

A very high %-age of Americans go to university (the figure is something like 50% now, ~30% graduating). Those universities are high quality, even though they have to teach the average person. ~7% of the population are garnering higher degrees.

Don't cry for us, Provost. We don't need it.

[Provost Harrison]

I don't cry for arbitrary nation-state units DanS, I have no attachment to them whatsoever. I do however feel the need to be concerned for the plight of my fellow man.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison

Really? The cost of your education would be just beyond reason to many of your citizens, who would never be able to conceive being able to pay such a sum of money.

That sounds like a value judgement to me. I deem my education to be worth the price I'm paying for it. I can't instill this view in anyone can I? Our public education system has failed to instill this view in most, so wouldn't a private institution be more effective at instilling this as their very existence depends upon it?

Thus the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

These people you refer to are the ones who were doomed from the beginning by the very system you support -- a state funded public education. Had they been given a choice, since they are already paying for there education through tax dollars, perhaps they would have choose a private education system, but as of now they don't have a choice. If your born into a poor family, in a poor neighborhood, the education you will receive from your local school will also most likely be poor.

The idea of the rich being the only ones with a choice a private system is a falicy. I a private system everyone has a choice. In the current system we have today only the rich have a choice.

But it is very easy for you to espouse 'the American way' when you can quite comfortably function within the system. When you can turn a blind eye to those who can't function effectively.

If poetic bleeding heart liberal waxing is alloted on a per person basis by some higher power, then I suggest you save this tripe for the strike.

[DanS]

My god, the tears are flowing now. Positively operatic.

The fact remains that at least 30% of the population are finding it possible to complete university. Can't be too difficult.

Debts are hardly evil. To hear it discussed here, you would think they could reposses your children.

I pay $150/month to pay off my college debts--not too much in comparison to others, admittedly. In the scheme of things, it's the best investment I've ever made, even though my degree was in no way practical.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Admiral

Latly, in regards to the claim that public education is inadequet, it would be better to improve the system not do away with it.

Agreed, but the change needs to be fundamental, not the state and federal government tossing a few million dollars, at it as they have already done, or some BS standardized testing.

[Solly]

And hey...so what if some can't afford education - we need a supply of people who'd work in McDonalds and pull pints in pubs.

[DanS]

Stew's the cynic! I'm not the cynic!

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants


That sounds like a value judgement to me. I deem my education to be worth the price I'm paying for it. I can't instill this view in anyone can I? Our public education system has failed to instill this view in most, so wouldn't a private institution be more effective at instilling this as their very existence depends upon it?

No one is asking you to instill it on anyone, just I agree with the principle that education is free for all, free from privelege, transcendent of commercial transaction. Society functions on more than currency you know.

We all have problems with public education, a lot of it is an issue of social deriliction. Perhaps we need to tackle it at it's roots. Free education for all is a damn good start

These people you refer to are the ones who were doomed from the beginning by the very system you support -- a state funded public education. Had they been given a choice, since they are already paying for there education through tax dollars, perhaps they would have choose a private education system, but as of now they don't have a choice. If your born into a poor family, in a poor neighborhood, the education you will receive from your local school will also most likely be poor.

Oh, the magic bullet eh? Hand it over to private enterprise. From what I have seen of the attempts made in my own country, this is nothing but a 'holy grail' of the right, and a totally unattainable one. I wouldn't like to evaluate what kind of a mess this mentality has made. But mark my words, practice has not borne out the theory to be a good one. Rather, it is a stinking catastrophe, the rich find another milchcow, and conditions do not improve one iota. Again, we need to tackle the issue at it's roots, not just make it someone else's responsibility. All this privatisation thing is simply a matter of 'passing the buck'

The idea of the rich being the only ones with a choice a private system is a falicy. I a private system everyone has a choice. In the current system we have today only the rich have a choice.

You've got to admit, it requires a lot more thought on behalf of a poor person to take the risk over someone who has a rich mummy and daddy to pay for it. Every person should have the same educational opportunities, regardless of parental background.

If poetic bleeding heart liberal waxing is alloted on a per person basis by some higher power, then I suggest you save this tripe for the strike.

Oh, I'm scared



Well you seem to have had it lucky DanS. But lets face it, compared to the military spending of your country, free education would be cheap. Where do your priorities lie?

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Infatuation
And hey...so what if some can't afford education - we need a supply of people who'd work in McDonalds and pull pints in pubs.

That is what we have Aberystwyth Economics graduates for