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Israel Kills Some More Children, Sharon Impressed At It

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  • I have don't have time right now to stick around, but I had to post this editorial from the washington post. It basically reiterates the same point I have made repeatedly on these ME thread during the last months: Sharon is not interested in peace, and has never been. Sharon and Hamas are two sides of the same coin.

    Though they may be sworn enemies, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the Hamas terrorist movement have spent the past week engaged in the same exercise -- trying to push Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority over the precipice on which it teeters, without being blamed for the subsequent crash.

    Even as it shreds Arafat's international standing with a steady stream of suicide bombs, Hamas protests that its real goal is to defend the Palestinian president against Israel. And even while he bombs Arafat's offices and security headquarters, Sharon insists that he's only trying to inspire his old enemy to take on the terrorists -- whose quarters Israel has left untouched the past seven days.

    It's not that either Sharon or Hamas worries about a pro-Arafat backlash -- the old man has lost his last defenders both at home and abroad. But neither wants its fingerprints on the most likely consequence of the chairman's downfall -- the final destruction of the Oslo peace process, that vision of a peaceful negotiated settlement between Israel and a new Palestinian state that is still supported, in theory, by the overwhelming majority of both peoples.

    The hawks in Israel and Washington who have been demanding Arafat's ouster usually fail to offer any idea of what would happen afterward. But both Hamas and Sharon have a post-Arafat plan -- one that starts by turning the clock back a decade, before Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization agreed to recognize each other at Oslo. Hamas's idea is to drive Israel from the West Bank and Gaza with suicide bombings, then, after consolidating an Islamic Palestinian regime, mount a war to liquidate Israel altogether. Sharon and those who egg him on want to lead Israelis into a new era of bloody struggle that will consolidate their control over far larger stretches of territory than could ever be obtained in a negotiated deal. If only his people will commit themselves to a few years of old-fashioned Zionist sacrifice, Sharon figures, the next Israeli generation could settle with the Palestinians from a new position of strength.

    These are dangerous dreams, and most Israelis and Palestinians know it. So Sharon and Hamas don't talk about them much -- instead, they peddle the short-term goals they know will sell to their audiences at home and abroad. Hamas says it is merely resisting Israel's oppressive occupation of Palestinian territory and avenging its assassination of Palestinian militants -- a position that has won it increasing popularity among both average West Bankers and the al-Jazeera television audience around the region. Sharon, of course, insists that he is merely fighting terrorism, just like the United States in Afghanistan -- never mind that the Bush administration has no plan to settle and annex Afghan territory.

    For most of the 1990s, these pitches never worked -- Israelis and Palestinians accepted that their only genuine out lay in a negotiated settlement. They knew it because decades of terrorism and retaliatory violence, and 26 years of full Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, had proven that neither side could ever hope to obtain its maximalist goals. The terrible achievement of Arafat is that in a mere 14 months he has gone from the brink of ending the occupation and its violence to convincing both sides that it is, at least for now, the only choice -- and thereby allowed the maximalist agendas to rise from the dead.

    There may be no way to save him and his tattered administration now. Arafat is no more capable of moving decisively against Hamas than he was able to accept the extraordinary peace settlement he could have signed just over a year ago. To do either would require making the kind of irrevocable choice that he has evaded all his life. The best that might be expected are enough half-measures to hold back Hamas -- and Sharon -- and return the situation to a U.S.-sponsored stalemate. The stalemate is terrible, but it has two advantages: It prevents Palestinian extremists from taking power and Israel from fully reoccupying the territories; and it preserves the cadre of Palestinian peacemakers who still cluster around Arafat, desperately hoping to somehow, someday steer their people back to the Oslo deal.

    These are sophisticated, passionate civilian politicians who represent the Palestinians' would-be modernizing elite: people such as Nabil Shaath and Saeb Erekat, Sari Nusseibeh and Yasser Abed Rabbo. As a group, they are probably the smartest, most worldly and most pro-Western political elite in the Middle East -- and, ironically, the one with the best chance of creating a genuine Arab democracy some day. History has stuck them with Arafat; they roll their eyes over his frequent flights of fantasy, tear their hair at his inability to lead, but fear for his life. Sharon would have you believe that they would step in if Arafat fell, but they feel differently: His collapse now, they say, would touch off bitter power struggles that -- thanks to the 700 Palestinian deaths during the past year and Israel's relentless military pressure -- the extremists would most likely win.

    Far better for the Palestinians that Arafat go quietly, after a period of U.S.-supervised stalemate and reduced tensions, and in a way that preserves the Palestinian Authority and its political class. There would still be turmoil, but chances would be greater that a new leadership would emerge that would embrace the tough choices Arafat has been unable to make. Such an outcome, of course, would mean oblivion for Sharon and for Hamas. That is why they both would like to push Arafat over the brink now, so that he takes the peacemakers with him. Sharon and the terrorists share a secret dream: to clear the field for each other.

    Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

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    • And pretty much the same thing, this time by another guy in the Boston Globe.

      By H.D.S. Greenway, Globe Correspondent, 12/10/2001

      HE HIDEOUS HAMAS terror that was visited upon Israel earlier this month has caused not only Israel and the United States to lose patience with Yasser Arafat, but also Egypt, Jordan, and Israel's sworn enemy, Saudi Arabia. No national aspirations on the part of the Palestinians can excuse these deeds, and every government's first priority is the protection of its citizens. For Israel, keeping Jews out of harm's way was the raison d'etre for a Jewish state in the first place.


      There is a profound split in Israel, however, on what should be done. Many of the people around Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and the Labor Party would like to see Israel and the Palestinian Authority back at the negotiating table in order to resume the talks that ended in Taba in January 2001 - talks that came within a hair's breadth of a mutually agreed-upon peace. But many of the people around Sharon and the Likud Party have a different agenda.

      The present government would be willing to see a Palestinian state, which is a big change for the Likud Party, coming as it does from Vladimir Jabotinsky's revisionist branch of Zionism that originally saw Israel absorbing not only the West Bank but all of what is now Jordan as well. You seldom see anymore the old Israeli propaganda to delegitimize the Palestinians and their claim to the occupied territories.

      But many in Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's camp believe that the Oslo process, with which Peres is so closely identified, was a mistake; that the Palestinians have not really accepted Israel's legitimacy; that Arafat's recognition of Israel's right to exist during the Yitzhak Rabin years was a fraud; and that the best solution would be to continue the occupation - even for another couple of generations if necessary - until the Palestinians can be bent to Israel's will and accept Israel's terms.

      If Palestinians don't like it, they can leave, according to this school of thought. After all, until he was assassinated, Rehavam Zeevi, a minister in Sharon's Cabinet, held the public position that all Arabs should be ethnically cleansed from the land.

      When Sharon says that ''Arafat is guilty of everything that is happening here''and that ''Arafat is the greatest obstacle to peace and stability in the Middle East,'' he is speaking of his version of peace. It was Hamas that sent the suicide bombers, but it is Arafat, not Hamas, that stands in the way of Sharon's world view. For only Arafat has the international standing and command of what is left of the Palestinian peace camp to stand as a negotiating partner. That helps explain why Sharon has been undermining the Palestinian Authority ever since he came to power.

      Get rid of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, the reasoning goes, and you get rid of what is left of the dangerous Oslo process. If you believe that no Palestinian wants to live in peace with Israel ever, then it is better to face an enemy that everyone can recognize as an enemy rather than deal with a deceiver. The only thing Arabs understand is force, this line of reasoning contends, and Americans are not going to pressure Israel to make peace with Hamas.

      In this Sharon and Hamas reinforce each other's philosophies. The Hamas bombings were timed to stop any cease-fire attempts that Arafat might be making in the wake of the Sept. 11 events, and it is no coincidence that the attacks came while Bush's special envoy, Gen. Anthony Zinni, was still unpacking.

      The United States sees a clear interest in bringing the morally bankrupt and geopolitically explosive Israeli occupation to an end, but as former Middle East negotiator, Dennis Ross, has said: ''Half measures, Mr. Arafat's stock in trade, will no longer work. America's capacity to influence the Sharon government, much less restrain it, will disappear if there is not an unmistakable decision on Mr. Arafat's part to declare war on Hamas and Islamic Jihad.''

      It remains unclear at this writing if Arafat will succeed in his crackdown on Palestinian extremists. His popularity has declined as Hamas's has risen. The Palestinian Authority's corruption and fickleness has made it unpopular, and, as in Israel, the peace camp is being discredited as the second intifada wears on and the number of Palestinian dead mounts. And Israel has offered no carrots; only sticks. But no matter what he does, Arafat is unlikely to get a passing grade from Sharon.

      Whatever his weaknesses, however, one shouldn't overlook the fact that Arafat's struggle has been to achieve an independent secular state, not an Islamic theocracy. No matter what their failings, his followers will be more willing to live side by side with Israel than the alternatives: Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Once the secular political struggle gives way to an ethnic and religious struggle, as is happening before our eyes, then the ramifications become truly frightening for the entire Middle East.

      There is now a ''total loss of mutual trust between the parties'' and a ''total incapacity to make even the smallest step toward each other, let alone to observe their commitments,'' argues Shlomo Ben-Ami, the former Israeli foreign minister. Writing in the Financial Times, Ben-Ami calls for an ''international alliance for peace ... that will include the European Union, Russia and key Arab States'' under ''American assertive leadership,'' leading to an international conference to supervise negotiations on a final agreement.

      Ben-Ami argues that the time has come for ''a multinational peace keeping force'' to ''supervise a disengagement'' leading to the establishment of a multinational protective rule over the territories" as a stage on the way to a comprehensive settlement.

      Ben-Ami is not the first to suggest that the Arab-Israeli war has gotten too dangerous to be left to the combatants.



      What are the odds that the US will realize they are giving a carte blanche to a homocidial warcriminal? Slim to none... But at least we try to wake people up.
      Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

      Comment


      • Well, Mr. Gnu, have you been reading ANY posts in this thread?
        I refute it thus!
        "Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"

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        • Yep. why?
          Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

          Comment


          • You seem to be oblivious to everyone's arguments.
            I refute it thus!
            "Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"

            Comment


            • ?
              Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

              Comment


              • During the two article postings, you said the same thing as Jules, but you ignored the coherent and valid refutations presented against that argument.
                I refute it thus!
                "Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"

                Comment


                • Are you referring to this:
                  To accept that article, we have to accept the following:

                  1. Sharon likes killing Palestinians
                  2. The Palestinians are peaceloving folk who would happily accept any compromise to end the violence perpetrated against their people
                  3. Bush loves seeing Sharon kill people, just because.
                  4. Sharon is Hitler

                  1. Eloquently refuted in both editorials. It has nothing to do with 'liking'. It is a tool to a political goal, the 'Grosse-Israel', if you will.

                  2. They just want their land back. Barring that, they want a fair deal.

                  3. Bush is a stupid and cowardly man. As many an american politician, he is under the influence of the very powerful jewish lobby, who contributes plenty of money to campaigns, not to mention spends equally much on PR.

                  4. Well, I'd say he is the equivalent to a 1936 Hitler. Hitler before he went insane, the Hitler who used ethnic hatred as a political tool. The Hitler who had no intention of stopping without outside pressure... The Hitler who made the name 'Chamberlain' ridiculed because he didn't have the courage to stand up to evil.
                  Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                  Comment


                  • 1.
                    2. That's what Hitler wanted too. Didn't justify mass-murder then, doesn't justify it now.
                    3. Yes, in the grips of the Jewish lobby, the true Nazis . . . Ever occur to you that Americans might support Israel on principle?
                    4.

                    Those articles don't really offer much of an alternative, because they, unlike you, acknowledge the truth that Arafat either cannot or will not restrain Hamas. Therefore they have nothing to offer but mournful dirges for the Oslo proccess. They complain that Sharon is trying to destroy the PA without really explaining why this is bad, since they themselves acknowledge that Arafat can't restrain Hamas or accept peace.

                    Comment


                    • What else was in there?

                      The Sharon quote about Hamas does not expose any secret alliance - it is saying that while Arafat is a terrorist has assumed a different form, more pleasing to the eye. It is harder to demonstrate to people like Jules here that Arafat is a terrorist, whereas if someone who spoke what Arafat thinks, i.e. Hamas, would show these people's true form.
                      Unfortunately doesn;t reality agree with your assumptions. Arafat staked his political future on negotiations with Israel leading to peace. Why do you think he is under threat of being toppled right now? If he wanted to curry favor with the palestinian populace he would take the Sharon/Hamas approach right now...

                      It is worth noting that the PLO shares offices with Hamas. They must have some sort of working coalition. I mean, would the Democras and the Republicans share office space? Would Mr. LaRouche share office space with Al Gore? You need to be on pretty informal and friendly terms to enter into such an agreement.
                      Share office? Source?

                      Also worth noting is a quote that best demonstrates Arafat's willingness to negotiate:

                      "That is not the Western Wall at all, but a Moslem shrine."
                      Yasser Arafat, Ma'ariv, October 11, 1996.

                      Imagine if Ariel Sharon said, "You know that Qabah over there in Meccah? That's actually a synagogue". There'd be a war! But Arafat and his officials say things tantamount to that every day!
                      Well, luckily I'm intelligent enough not to take rhetorics from a country under occupation at face value.

                      If you really need a lesson in these things, look up and compare Stalins statements vis-a-vi Germany from 1941 and 1943.
                      Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                      Comment


                      • What you're saying Cyber is that the Palestinians are inherently good because Israel is occupying them, which is just nutty. You discount every bad thing they do or say because they are under a different administration then they could have been if history had been what it wasn't. It's really prepostrous. Furthermore, you ignore the possibility that Arafat could be motivated by the desire to keep his hide safe from Israeli missiles.

                        Comment


                        • Natan, I'm assuming you agree with me on points 1 and 4.

                          2: Did you sleep through history? You might want to look up 'world war 2'. There are a multitude of websites that can give you a basic knowledge of this the perhaps most influential even in the 20'th century...

                          3: Not for a second. Americans are often ignorant, stupid and misinformed, but not usually evil.


                          As for your last point: While Arafat can't do antyhing right now, both editorials are obviously pointing out the same thing: The US should rein in Israel. Hard. Now. If Israel is forced to behave like a civilized nation and the occupation is ended, Arafats clout would go up like a rocket, and with that the possibility of a peaceful solution.

                          But with american backing for Israeli barbarity, no peace is possible.
                          Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                          Comment


                          • What you're saying Cyber is that the Palestinians are inherently good because Israel is occupying them, which is just nutty.
                            How did you get that from what I said? I make no claims whatsoever about whether Palestinians are inherently good. I say, however, that palestinians are not inherently evil because they are resisting occupation. I have also said in previous thread that any people, from aborginies to eskimoes, would behave in the same fashion if occupied by a nation intent on stealing the rest of their land.

                            You discount every bad thing they do or say because they are under a different administration then they could have been if history had been what it wasn't. It's really prepostrous.
                            Nope, I'm saying that dragging up a statement made five years ago, addressed to his own people about another people who are trying to kill them can not in any way say anything about his intentions if the killing stops. Any student of history knows this.

                            I also refer you as well to Stalin in 1941 and 1943.

                            Furthermore, you ignore the possibility that Arafat could be motivated by the desire to keep his hide safe from Israeli missiles.
                            Well, since this postion was set at the end of the first intifada, I think that is a fairly safe assumption.
                            Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CyberGnu
                              Natan, I'm assuming you agree with me on points 1 and 4.

                              2: Did you sleep through history? You might want to look up 'world war 2'. There are a multitude of websites that can give you a basic knowledge of this the perhaps most influential even in the 20'th century...
                              Would you like to deny that Hitler was motivated by the desire to reclaim the German territories in Poland taken from his nation after WWI?
                              3: Not for a second. Americans are often ignorant, stupid and misinformed, but not usually evil.
                              Guess you've never read American conservative magazines and newspaper columnists. Ever.
                              As for your last point: While Arafat can't do antyhing right now, both editorials are obviously pointing out the same thing: The US should rein in Israel. Hard. Now. If Israel is forced to behave like a civilized nation and the occupation is ended, Arafats clout would go up like a rocket, and with that the possibility of a peaceful solution.
                              But why? They agree that Arafat can't bring peace and can't even accept Israeli concessions.
                              But with american backing for Israeli barbarity, no peace is possible.
                              Why should peace be possible here when it isn't in any other Arab country with such an active Islamist movement?

                              Comment


                              • To accept that article, we have to accept the following:

                                1. Sharon likes killing Palestinians
                                2. The Palestinians are peaceloving folk who would happily accept any compromise to end the violence perpetrated against their people
                                3. Bush loves seeing Sharon kill people, just because.
                                4. Sharon is Hitler
                                1. In his heart of hearts? I doubt it. But it's the only way he knows how to control terrorism. And he has to do it so as not to appear weak, lest more radical elements within the Israeli government decide to get rid of him so they can push forward with their war policy. In a sense Sharon is in a nearly impossible situation. The international community should help him get out of it, and Arafat too.

                                2. In general, most Palestinians probably are. It's not "Palestinian" terrorism; it's called "international" terrorism. Groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad do not represent the desires of the Palestinian people although they may claim to act on their behalf. Some Palestinians are even credulous enough to believe that kind of nonsense. Terrorism cannot exist without the support of powerful governmental agencies, contrary to the myths expressed by Hollywood in the James Bond films where any eccentric millionaire can run an international terrorist operation out of his home office. All the various terrorist organizations worldwide express a single intention: to destroy the institution of the sovereign nation-state. This is what is being done to Israel and this is what happened to the U.S. on 9-11.

                                Now Sharon believes he can control terrorism by bombing the PA. This may prevent some attacks in the short-run, but because terrorism is global in its reach this really doesn't solve the problem for very long. All it does is enrage people who would otherwise have supported peace, who are now duped into going along with groups like Hamas. Sharon's policies are suicidal for Israel. Although Israel's armed forces can easily take on any combination of Arab states in a conventional war, it's the irregular ("terrorist") war that follows which they cannot win and which will lead to Israel's destruction. Terrorism is a global problem and must be dealt with on that level.

                                3. Bush is being bullied by those factions of the international oligarchy who want a Middle East "clash of civilizations" war in order to prevent the kind of economic cooperation in Eurasia which is beginning to develop around Russia and China. The solution to the current global financial crisis is to be found in this kind of cooperation. Threatened with the extinction of their system, what do oligarchies do? In a last desperate attempt to hold on to power, they start wars. A religious war in the Middle East is not in Israel's best interests, but there are those forces more powerful than Israel alone who want it that way. The best argument for preserving the international anti-terror coalition, especially U.S.-Russian cooperation. Bush needs to stand up against this pressure and defend the sovereignty of the U.S. as well as those nations too weak to defend themselves on their own.

                                4. I don't think the article suggested that at all. It did however say that Sharon is making a monumental mistake for Israel by going along with those who want war, a mistake analagous to the mistake made by Germany in launching World War II (a war it couldn't win). I certainly hope that's not how Sharon wants to be remembered by history.
                                -----------
                                Edit: Ugh! This post turned out badly. Too many random thoughts strung together in an incoherent fashion. Trying to prove the First Welfare Theorem in economics...exams over soon... then... can... finally... rest................ *suffers brain overload*
                                Last edited by Jules; December 12, 2001, 00:48.
                                "People sit in chairs!" - Bobby Baccalieri

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