Israel Kills Some More Children, Sharon Impressed At It

[Defiant]

Natan,
I agree also with shooting down hi-jacked airliners, it's when you have a choice, how would like to be the pilot to "have" to shoot down an airliner and then find out it had Mrs. Smith's 3 grade history class on board coming back from DC. Makes it a little tough to go home an kiss your 7 year old daughter goodnight, wouldn't you think. That is a no-win situation cause that plan could easily crash into Disneyland, that's why there has to be NO alternative when ordering such an act.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Defiant
"In this assasination, they should've waited."

Eli, that is all I wanted to hear, you are right, they should have waited, and if your public is smart enough and also didn't like the children dying and speak up a little, your gov't will probably avoid it next time. Thank you.

Dont worry. After assasinations with civilian casualties the main issue on the media for two days is "how this could happen?" and "what lessons will be learned?".

[Natan]

Originally posted by Defiant
Natan,
I agree also with shooting down hi-jacked airliners, it's when you have a choice, how would like to be the pilot to "have" to shoot down an airliner and then find out it had Mrs. Smith's 3 grade history class on board coming back from DC. Makes it a little tough to go home an kiss your 7 year old daughter goodnight, wouldn't you think. That is a no-win situation cause that plan could easily crash into Disneyland, that's why there has to be NO alternative when ordering such an act.

I don't think there was a reasonable alternative to what Israel did. It would have been impossible to sneak in an Israeli good enough to pass as a Palestinian, have him kill a guy without being detected, and leave; using a Palestinian agent would have endangered his family.

[Defiant]

Natan,
In some cases you are correct but the Israelis or "Massad", Eli correct me if I am using the wrong term, knew he was in the car, somebody was on the ground there that knew what the hell was going on, and they do it all the time over there. Israelis go back and forth between Israel and Palistine holding almost at will.

Eli,
That's all the attention your gov't needs, Sharon doesn't want to be known as a baby killer. Now if the PLO realizes this and they put a terrorist with a bomb and a child in a car destined for an Israeli school, of coarse you blast it, you have no choice.

[lightblue]

I don't think there was a reasonable alternative to what Israel did. It would have been impossible to sneak in an Israeli good enough to pass as a Palestinian, have him kill a guy without being detected, and leave; using a Palestinian agent would have endangered his family.

I don't know how feasible this is, but couldn't they have used a sniper in hovering helicopter. I suppose it is probably quite hard what with the turbulence and stuff. I also wonder if the rocket was explosive, or if it was the fuel tank or the explosives in the back seat that ended up killing the kids. If the rocket was explosive you wonder if they couldn't have used the machinegun mounted at the front of the Cobras?

[Natan]

Originally posted by lightblue


I don't know how feasible this is, but couldn't they have used a sniper in hovering helicopter. I suppose it is probably quite hard what with the turbulence and stuff. I also wonder if the rocket was explosive, or if it was the fuel tank or the explosives in the back seat that ended up killing the kids. If the rocket was explosive you wonder if they couldn't have used the machinegun mounted at the front of the Cobras?

The rocket is guided and gives less warning, but I don't know enough about the matter to say whether it has a larger or smaller area of destruction than a helicopter mounted machine gun.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Defiant
Natan,
In some cases you are correct but the Israelis or "Massad", Eli correct me if I am using the wrong term, knew he was in the car, somebody was on the ground there that knew what the hell was going on, and they do it all the time over there. Israelis go back and forth between Israel and Palistine holding almost at will.

Israel has 20,000 Palestinian cooperators who supply real time information. This is how all the assasinations succeed. AFAIK the info these cooperators give even goes to the details of how many people are sitting in a car in a given moment.
In this case, either such info was unavailable, or they had a good reason to shoot, or the one sitting in the Helicopter made a mistake.

The rockets are guided, as Natan said. Israel gets all the **** when civilians get hurt so they put a lot of importance to direct hits.

[Eli]

Originally posted by lightblue
I don't know how feasible this is, but couldn't they have used a sniper in hovering helicopter. I suppose it is probably quite hard what with the turbulence and stuff. I also wonder if the rocket was explosive, or if it was the fuel tank or the explosives in the back seat that ended up killing the kids. If the rocket was explosive you wonder if they couldn't have used the machinegun mounted at the front of the Cobras?

IIRC the helicopter is so far away from the scene that it cant be seen or heard. I know of one event when some "militant" heard a helicopter so he jumped out of his car and grabbed two kids who were nearby knowing that if he is the target they will save his life.
Anyway, for a sniper to shoot you need the Helo to be close, and this will cause them to run before you can shoot.

[Natan]

Sure, the Israelis have informants on the ground, but my guess is most of them are unarmed and almost none are prepared for assassination and flight on demand - they do have families to think about, you know. And yes, Palestinians do travel to Israel every so often to work, but almost never the other way round - I mean, if they know the guy is a Jew, they will kill him. Several guys have been shot by Hamas just for being Israelis attending Palestinian restaurants.

[Defiant]

I sure as hell would be armed . But like Eli said they have 20,000 Palestinian help and almost have real time information, I'll concede that a mistake might have been made.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Defiant
I sure as hell would be armed

Wouldn't help you much, since it'd be incriminating evidence and your odds of shooting your way out of an arrest are slim.

[Jules]

It's been my experience in the 4 months I've been here that many Apolytoners seem to wretch anytime I mention Lyndon LaRouche (perhaps I'm too young to understand why he's hated so much in the U.S.), but I post this anyway with the hope that someone will be persuaded by it and recognize the potentially fatal path currently being taken by Sharon and his collaborators.

Bush Cannot Make Excuses For Sharon's Suicidal War

by Michele Steinberg


Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Democratic Presidential pre-candidate for 2004, is warning that the Bush Administration must not make any excuses for what Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is doing in the Dec. 2-8 attacks on Palestinians. "Sharon and the IDF [Israeli Defense Forces] are determined to kill Arafat and to destroy the Palestinian Authority. We will not tolerate this," said LaRouche.

On Dec. 7, LaRouche further asserted that the present government in Israel represents currents inside Israel and abroad that must be judged as clinically insane. Even after the intervention by the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin—who warned that unless there was a fundamental change in Israeli policy, the nation would soon cease to exist—those same suicidal policies were continued, and were, in fact, the driving factor behind Rabin's assassination. LaRouche emphasized that a government that pursues suicidal policies cannot be treated as sane. If Israel persists in its current policies, somewhere down the line, the result will be the destruction of Israel, and its vilification as a Hitler-like state.

LaRouche demanded the Bush Administration tell Sharon: Stop this Nazi-like policy toward the Palestinians, or the United States will come at you full force and crush you; such unequivocal action could stop Sharon's madness.

Killing The Palestinian Negotiators
At about 3:30 a.m. on Dec. 7, in defiance of appeals from Pope John Paul II and other leaders in the world community, Prime Minister Sharon escalated his attacks on the Palestinian Authority, ordering Israeli F-16s to bomb the police station and police academy of the Palestinian National Authority in the Gaza Strip. At the same time, in a show of Hitler-style insanity, Sharon demanded the same Palestinian police crack down on terrorism, while he is bombing their headquarters, stations, and prisons.

The new attacks came on Pearl Harbor day, just hours after Sharon's government had told U.S. envoy Gen. Anthony Zinni (ret.) that Israeli security officials would meet with their Palestinian security counterparts to begin discussing how to end the violence. The deceit is an exact replica of Sharon's behavior, then as Defense Minister, in Lebanon in 1982. The Israeli Prime Minister not only is pursuing an agenda for war: He also has a clear ulterior purpose in mind—a continuing vendetta to kill Palestinian National Authority President Yasser Arafat, which dates back 20 years.

LaRouche emphasized that the Bush Administration and other leaders in the United States must have the courage to tell the truth, despite the U.S. mid-term elections next November and all the pressures from the right-wing Zionist lobby that go with them.

Sharon's actions, LaRouche said, are creating a Thirty Years War-type of situation, and the administration must not make apologies for Sharon and his IDF murder machine. The Israelis are bombing their own occupied population and carrying out systematic, pre-meditated assassination campaigns among them, and are violating every international resolution passed by the United Nations regarding Israel.

The Israeli people and institutions themselves must be told, said LaRouche, that "these madmen," Sharon and fellow Likud party leader, former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, are leading them and the nation of Israel to destruction. LaRouche compared the situation to that of Count Wallenstein in the middle of the Thirty Years War (1618-48), as described by the great poet Friedrich Schiller in his play of that name. Wallenstein, commander of Imperial ("Catholic") forces, was assassinated for his "unauthorized" search for peace with the Protestant alliance—guaranteeing nearly two decades more of war, and the absolute devastation of much of Europe.

LaRouche referred to the importance of the treaty that did end that war. "The Peace of Westphalia policy is what must be applied, now," LaRouche said. "It is the only policy which can rescue the situation."

Sharon 'Alliance With Hamas' Exposed
Inside Israel itself, evidence of opposition to Sharon's actions is showing up in the press. In fact, some are exposing that Sharon has a secret deal with Hamas, reporting that a stormy Cabinet meeting followed Sharon's return from the United States after meeting with President Bush, Secretary of State Colin Powell, and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. In the Cabinet session, members of Sharon's inner circle were pounding the table and telling Foreign Minister Shimon Peres that they intend to bring the deadly Hamas group that claimed credit for the suicide terrorist acts, into power to replace Arafat. At that point, led by Peres, Labor Party members of the governing coalition walked out of the meeting, and are now debating whether to bring down the Sharon government.

This Faustian pact with Hamas was detailed in a Dec. 4 Ha'aretz article by senior commentator Akiva Eldar, who revealed that at a Cabinet meeting, Minister Silvan Shalom blasted Peres for advocating "negotiations" with Arafat. Shalom stated, "Between Hamas and Arafat, I prefer Hamas," adding that Arafat is a "terrorist in a diplomat's suit, while Hamas can be hit unmercifully ... there won't be any international protests." The London Times, owned by Rupert Murdoch, one of Sharon's biggest backers, also reported that Sharon's Cabinet wants Hamas to replace Arafat.

Those familiar with the 30-years-long mode of operation of Israel's "Terror Against Terror" hit teams, dismiss the standard "preventive retaliation" explanation as calculated double-talk: The assassinations are pre-calculated to provoke revenge strikes from Hamas or other terrorists, which in turn unleash the IDF generals.

Bully The White House
These events in the Middle East should shock no one who has heard LaRouche's warnings that the region was being used to ignite a global religious war, by forces in the United States and Britain seeking such a "clash of civilizations." The World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks had this purpose, and were an attempted coup d'état against President Bush. But already on July 20, LaRouche warned that the "Guns of August" were being readied, and that a faction inside the IDF command even more rabid than Sharon, might consider assassinating him, to blame Palestinians and justify launching a general Mideast war. Then on Oct. 21, LaRouche identified how the phony terrorism is used in detail. "Who benefitted from the assassination of [Tourism Minister Rehavam] Ze'evi?" wrote LaRouche. "None other than that section of the Israeli military command which is determined to bully the Bush administration into allowing, or even conducting full-scale attacks on Syria and Iraq."

And "bully the Administration" is what Sharon is doing, using the assets in Congress of the "billionaires club" of Jewish donors who call themselves "Mega."

Sharon claimed he got a "green light" from Bush to give Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. "the Taliban treatment." But Israeli sources expose this as a lie. On Dec. 5, Ha'aretz coorespondent Zev Schiff wrote that, in their meeting, Bush laid out a series of "red lines"—not "green lights"—to Sharon, warning him not to harm Arafat, nor topple the PA, which is the U.S.-recognized partner in the peace negotiations. Sharon is ignoring Bush and counting on Mega's politicial clout.

To further the Sharon/Mega aims, a resolution sponsored by Henry Hyde (R-Ill.) and Tom Lantos (D-Calif.), two of Sharon's biggest backers, was rammed through the House of Representatives by a vote of 384-11, to pressure Bush to crush Arafat in the name of a "war on terrorism." At the same time, ten members of Congress, including Senators John McCain (R-Ariz.), Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.), Jesse Helms (R-N.C.), and Trent Lott (R-Miss.) sent a letter to Bush, demanding Iraq be made the next war target in the "war on terrorism."

Despite the broad margin, however, there is some clear-minded opposition, reflected in the warning by Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich.), that this resolution pushes a policy for Israel and the United States that leads to world war.
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And for those of you who made it this far, my tribute to Stefu.


Looks like all those people who were turned into Scotsmen by the alien blancmanges in Monty Python's "science fiction sketch" episode.
Thanks, Stefu.

[Natan]

The comparison to Nazis is an obscene desecration and an abuse. The author chooses to ignore Palestinian terrorism as if it did not exist, and that is an obvious recipie for an absurd conclusion.

[Goingonit]

To accept that article, we have to accept the following:

1. Sharon likes killing Palestinians
2. The Palestinians are peaceloving folk who would happily accept any compromise to end the violence perpetrated against their people
3. Bush loves seeing Sharon kill people, just because.
4. Sharon is Hitler

Now, as for the causes of Rabin's assasination? Extremists. They were on the opposite side of the Palestinian terrorists, but extremists nonetheless.

The Sharon quote about Hamas does not expose any secret alliance - it is saying that while Arafat is a terrorist has assumed a different form, more pleasing to the eye. It is harder to demonstrate to people like Jules here that Arafat is a terrorist, whereas if someone who spoke what Arafat thinks, i.e. Hamas, would show these people's true form.

It is worth noting that the PLO shares offices with Hamas. They must have some sort of working coalition. I mean, would the Democras and the Republicans share office space? Would Mr. LaRouche share office space with Al Gore? You need to be on pretty informal and friendly terms to enter into such an agreement.

Also worth noting is a quote that best demonstrates Arafat's willingness to negotiate:

"That is not the Western Wall at all, but a Moslem shrine."
Yasser Arafat, Ma'ariv, October 11, 1996.

Imagine if Ariel Sharon said, "You know that Qabah over there in Meccah? That's actually a synagogue". There'd be a war! But Arafat and his officials say things tantamount to that every day!

[CyberGnu]

The comparison to Nazis is an obscene desecration and an abuse. The author chooses to ignore Palestinian terrorism as if it did not exist, and that is an obvious recipie for an absurd conclusion.

I agree completely. Germans have in the years since the nazi regime shown themsevels to be a fine and upstanding people. Only time can tell whether the Israelis will evolve from their current barbarous state as well.