EU should bomb Israel and tell americans to mind their own business

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Frodo
I'm getting the impression now that fear is what drives this whole thing. [...]tools at hand the situation will never be fixed.

I haven't had the energy to read all that.

To make a long story short:

1880 : Jews see rising anti-semitism and decide to slowly move to Israel
1900 : Arabs see economic developement of the area (due to jewish projects) and move here
1920 : Arab leaders fear losing their ruler status in face of Jewish emigration. They fear Brittish prefer the Jews and fear Jews will spread enlightement though Arab society, leading to the overthrow of the leaders.
1930 : Arab intifadas against Jews and sometimes Brits.
1930 - 1945 : Jews see Brits cave in to Arabs and form militias to defend themselves and later to fight Brittish occupation. At the same time, several radical jewish groups perform acts on the border of terror and partisanism, targetting military leaders, headquarters and such.
1945 - 1948 : Jews flee europe in hope to start new life in Israel. Brits give up on area. Jews organize to declare independance. Arab leaders organize to squash Jewish independance.
1948 - 50s - Arab armies attack newly delcared Israel. Local arabs are encouraged to flee by both sides - arab armies to prevent hurting them, jews - to clear lands and to avoid "fifth columns".
50s - 67 - Many small conflicts and terror by Arabs, resisted by Israel by acts of revenge which eventually stop massacares of Israeli villages. Shimon Peres initiates contacts with France about a nuclear reactor which is later built.
67 - Feeling threatened by large armies of Jordan and Egypt, Israel starts a war. Jordan does all it can to "loose" west-bank to Israel. Israel conquers west bank and liberates Israeli holy sites, access to which was not allowed and which were infact desecrated. Golan Heights, used to bomb the Israeli Galilie are conquered as well.
PLO is formed shortly, and propaganda about palestinian identity first appears.

72 - Israel constantly on alert, doesn't want to start another preemptive war. When D-day comes and actual knowledge about armies about to attack within hours come, it's too late. America says it will refuse support if Israel again attacks first.
70s - After an intifada and an attempted revolution attempt by Arafat, Arafat is kicked out of Jordan (to Lebanon) by King Hussein. There are intelligence historions who claim Mossad informed Hussein about Arafat's attempt to assassinate him. Mossad supposedly also informed Sadat about a previous assassination attempt by extreme right, for which he was greatful.
79 - Anwar Sadat, decides his people come first and makes peace with Israel to allow for the peaceful developement of Egypt.
In the meantime Arafat ignites hostilities between Mulslims and Christian in Lebanon. Formes a mini-state. Counless massacares are peformed. Lebanon is used as a base for anti-Israeli terracts
82 - Israeli government, seeking to stop terracts and get rid of Arafat (cause of terracts through out the 70s) uses the murder of it's diplomat by a palestinain to invade lebanon. The christian welcome them with flowers. Muslims lead by Arafat fight against them. Syria invades Lebanon in response. Israel decides to give control to Lebanese christian armies it trained for some time. They perform Sabra and Shatilla. Israel fails to respond in time.
Arafat deported to Tunis.
Israel, seeking to create a buffer zone from syria and muslim resstance groups, formes the buffer zones and filles them with christian army - South Lebanese Army.
1988(?) - First intifada starts. The official pre-text - Israeli murder of civilians, later uncovered to be a simple car accident. Israel responds in a tough manner.
90 - An attempt by Peres to sign agreement with Jordan about Jordan taking care of many palestinian refugees is uncovered by Israeli rihgt wing and Jordan decides it wants nothing more to do with the palestinians.
1990-91 - Iraq goes Amoc on neighbours. Israel forced to sit quietly to allow America to hold it's fragile coalition. Arafat and King Hussein support Iraq.
91 - After the events where the world feels united, Israel talks to Palestinian representatives.
92 - It is discovered they are controlled by Arafat
93 - Arafat pledges - no more terror. Rabin believes him and following that they sign Oslo.
94 - 96 - Terror waves come and go, with hardly any Israeli reaction. Israel makes first withdrawal.
96 - Nethanyahu threatens Araft he will topple him. Arafat starts dealing with Terror.
98 - Israel makes another withdrawal.
99 - Nethanyahu, having a corrupt govt. and surfice economical problems, plus a weak coalition, looses to Barak.
2000- Barak, after warning from both Israeli intel. chiefs and Palestinian officials withdraws unilaterally from Lebanon
2000 - Barak enters camp david talks to discuss third withdrawal and binds it with end of conflict. Arafat wants third withdrawal but no end of conflict and stalls. Talks fail.
2000 - Predictions of Israeli intel. and Palestinian peace camp comes true, when Arafat decides to copy Lebanon in the West Bank. Using a visit by Sharon as a pre-text - violent riots break out in Israel. Israeli arabs are also taking part - organized by Israeli Arab ministers - formerly in Arafat's office and still having close ties to Arafat.
2000 - Arafat releases the terrorists he jailed starting from 96. For the first time (except several previous incidents) Arafat's police forces themselves participate in terror: drive by shooting, mortar shooting, shooting at neighbourhoods.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Mark L
Others, including Arafat himself, are wanted in Belgium too. Sharon isn't the only one.

Then why are the rest of the poster ignoring this fact?
To my knowledge Arafat is wanted only recently after Israelis pressed charges.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Mark L
Blair can say all he wants, everyone else calls it an army. If it looks like an army, if it acts like an army, and if it fights like an army, it is an army.

Meanwhile it smells like another fake "peacekeeping force".

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


Apart from the very first portion of this sentence, this is complete nonsense! 'Israeli' is not the same thing as 'Jewish' and 'Palestinian' is not the same thing as 'Islamic'. If someone does not like the US, does that make them anti-anglosaxon? Of course not. Have you ever even been to Israel? Have you been to Palestine?

Your putting your head up your ass again, Rogan.
I've told you on several times I have been there, and have been fired on by your "Islamic" friends. Whats non-sense is the bull spin you people try to put on the ME.

Most 'Brits' condemn the violence from both sides. Any terrorist, anywhere in the world should be hunted down and punished. Terrorism should not be allowed to win ever!

You couldn't tell from the posts we see here from the Empire.

But that also includes Israeli terrorists - they should not be given special treatment, and I think it is disgusting how some people on these boards support or make excuses for their terrorist atrocities.

Terrorism bites, tis true.

[Saint Marcus]

To my knowledge Arafat is wanted only recently after Israelis pressed charges.

Not Israelis, but European Jews. But yes, only recently. Only if some organisation presses charges against someone, then it's possible to start a trial. Nobody pressed charges against Arafat until recently, but now that they have I don't think he'll be visiting Belgium any time soon.

Meanwhile it smells like another fake "peacekeeping force".

Quite a peacekeeping force, driving in Leopard II tanks and flying Eurofighter Typhoons.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


I think this is part of the problem. How do you define terrorist?

Is it the killing of civilians in order to cause terror when war has not been declared? Then the King David Hotel falls under this category - lots of civilians were killed, and the bombing was obviously intented to cause terror.

1) The bombing was obviously meant to destroy the military HQ of the opposing British forces which were about to arrest Irgun members, IIRC based on information provided by the Yishuv.
2) By this logic, the US bombing of Afghanistan is terrorism, since it is meant to make the Taliban afraid. In fact, almost all bombing has the goal of making the neemy afraid and almost all bombing kills civillians.

But what if the perpetrator is an army of a country? Does that make it any different? Are the atrocities committed by the Israeli army under the command of Sharon terrorism too? If not, why not? The IRA are the Irish Republican Army but they are most definitely terrorists. Why should it matter which other countries recognise the existence of the state?

I would say that terrorism is not something done by regular, uniformed armies. Armies can be many bad things, but I think terrorism implies irregular warfare.

A short while ago, I watched a BBC news report which was showing a block of flats in Palestine which was being deliberately shelled by an Israeli tank (I saw the tanks doing the shelling on TV!). There were many women and children in the flats and we were shown pictures of traumatised children (although none were injured). Is this not terrorism but your own definition?

Depends on several factors. I don't have access to the report nor did I see it, and we don't know why they were being shelled or if the tank crew could tell they were occupied. Now the Jewish terrorists who set out to kill Palestinian civillians in "revenge attacks," are definitely terrorists ( I don't know why so many media outlets mislabel them "vigalantes") but I don't think you've really show me enough here to go on.

Or what about the pictures from a couple of days ago of children running from the bombs of Israeli F-16s?

If the media were not cowed into submission, we could just as easily be seeing pictures of Afghan children running from American bombs. In fact, a few news organizations do show such pictures, but I doubt you'd describe USAF as a terrorist organization. Both nations try their best, but with those sorts of weapons, accidents will happen. Sort of like the way that despite the best efforts of manufcaturers, legislators, and drivers, car accidents still happen. Of course, the bombs are more terrifying and horrific, but the point is, accidents happen.

Unfortunately it seems that some people only want to use the word 'terrorist' if it is their enemy.

Yes, and that is why many news organizations refuse to use the word.

[Bereta_Eder]

Chris,

I know you speak your mind and I appreciated your input. I hadn't yet asked the question about US support for Israel.