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EU should bomb Israel and tell americans to mind their own business

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  • I would like to know how prevalent religious fundamentalism is in Palestine. As always, the most extreme persons are the most vocal, and this can lead to a skewed image of what the people in general are really like. Muslim fundies may want to control the world, but so do all fundies. The only reason that Hamas has garnered any support is because the Palestinians are apathetic toward Arafat and see Hamas as more effective in getting the Palestinian point across, but only marginally. Palestinians aren't happy with either; all they want is a decent livelihood. The problem is that if they are to obtain such a thing, Israel will have to make sacrifices, and then there's the whole possession is nine-tenths of the law thing.

    I don't believe in the success of a two-state solution because Palestinians will always believe that Israelis got the better deal, and since the Israelis will be better off regardless of the deal, it wouldn't be easy to dispel such a notion. Having one shared state with laws and policies that do not take into account religious differences or ethnicity pulls the rug out from under any Palestinian who would claim that Islam is being discriminated against. And can you really say that the average Palestinian wants to take over the world? Why are all Palestinians megalomaniacs? It sounds to me like all they want is their own share of the world, a proportionate share.

    Here's a question: If the Palestinians are given such a share and religious fundamentalists continue to antagonize the situation by demanding more, why would they recieve any support from the Palestinian people at all? They would only be bringing strife down on the people, who would be satisfied with what they already had. Right now the Palestinians have nothing to lose; why wouldn't they support suicide bombers?

    If there is a problem re the growth of the muslim population, have the government impose a limit on how many kids both israelis and palestinians can have. This would keep the balance relatively equal. Of course, if the palestinians feel that the average israeli has more power than they do, their response will be to try and increase their own numbers. To avoid this problem the government must practice equality and provide equal representation.

    I think my view of human nature is actually extremely negative. In my post I pointed out how the natural human reaction to a situation like this was an act of violence. I suggest that the palestinians and israelis need to look past this automatic response and find a more well thought out solution. Violence only leads to more violence, and so forth.

    I don't remember Hitler ever attacking America. But Osama Bin Laden's perception of America shows that yes, there are flaws in our democracy. If we inspire such responses, however illegitimate, then perhaps we need to alter the message that we send out to other nations. I do not believe in a dynamic of evil people and good people. People can be evil some of the time and good some of the time, but they can never be ultimately defined as such. People change, mature, and regress. Any label attached to them will ultimately become inappropriate. The rhetoric used by the Bush administration perpetrates this primitive notion of a black and white world where it is easy to see who is good and who is bad. But there is neither evil nor good in this situation, only humanity.

    I have no sympathy for those who say that they don't want to live next to a person of a different religious/ethnic group, regardless of the identity of the person. To try and be xenophobic and isolationist in this day and age is a sure recipe for disaster. You can't hide from people who aren't like you, especially if you're both trying to occupy the same space. This does not mean that I don't share these tendencies myself. I don't want to live in Harlem. But we have seen that both sides in this conflict often fail to grasp the concept of a compromise, and are thus spelling doom for a two-state situation.

    Extremists and terrorists will never go away, but their support can easily fade, and subsequently their power. I do not accept that the two sides are in some kind of eternal power struggle that only one can survive. The notion of such a fated conflict gives rise to the conflict itself; it does not spring from it. Sharon is not some kind of modern-day Maccabeus; he has more in common with Joab, if anyone. Amos 9:14 doesn't exclude the presence of other peoples, you know...
    It is certain; my conviction gains infinitely the moment another soul chooses to believe in it.

    -Novalis

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Frodo
      I don't believe in the success of a two-state solution because Palestinians will always believe that Israelis got the better deal, and since the Israelis will be better off regardless of the deal, it wouldn't be easy to dispel such a notion. Having one shared state with laws and policies that do not take into account religious differences or ethnicity pulls the rug out from under any Palestinian who would claim that Islam is being discriminated against. And can you really say that the average Palestinian wants to take over the world? Why are all Palestinians megalomaniacs? It sounds to me like all they want is their own share of the world, a proportionate share.
      What an Israeli would say is, "Great idea! Let's bring all the terrorists into our country!"

      That's not wholly right, but not wholly wrong, either.

      Here's a question: If the Palestinians are given such a share and religious fundamentalists continue to antagonize the situation by demanding more, why would they recieve any support from the Palestinian people at all? They would only be bringing strife down on the people, who would be satisfied with what they already had. Right now the Palestinians have nothing to lose; why wouldn't they support suicide bombers?
      b/c there are some Palestinians who DO want the Jews to go back from where they came from. This is a significant percentage, and they, as you said, are the most vocal

      If there is a problem re the growth of the muslim population, have the government impose a limit on how many kids both israelis and palestinians can have. This would keep the balance relatively equal. Of course, if the palestinians feel that the average israeli has more power than they do, their response will be to try and increase their own numbers. To avoid this problem the government must practice equality and provide equal representation.
      You think any Muslim would stand for that?

      I have no sympathy for those who say that they don't want to live next to a person of a different religious/ethnic group, regardless of the identity of the person. To try and be xenophobic and isolationist in this day and age is a sure recipe for disaster. You can't hide from people who aren't like you, especially if you're both trying to occupy the same space. This does not mean that I don't share these tendencies myself. I don't want to live in Harlem. But we have seen that both sides in this conflict often fail to grasp the concept of a compromise, and are thus spelling doom for a two-state situation.

      Extremists and terrorists will never go away, but their support can easily fade, and subsequently their power. I do not accept that the two sides are in some kind of eternal power struggle that only one can survive. The notion of such a fated conflict gives rise to the conflict itself; it does not spring from it. Sharon is not some kind of modern-day Maccabeus; he has more in common with Joab, if anyone. Amos 9:14 doesn't exclude the presence of other peoples, you know...
      I have to say that you probably wouldn't have much sympaythy for the Pals, then. As to the "fated conflict", the conflict is not fated, but it takes a long time to change morals. Israelis and Palestinians won't be able to live in peace for another 20 yrs, at least.
      I refute it thus!
      "Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Frodo
        I would like to know how prevalent religious fundamentalism is in Palestine. As always, the most extreme persons are the most vocal, and this can lead to a skewed image of what the people in general are really like. Muslim fundies may want to control the world, but so do all fundies. The only reason that Hamas has garnered any support is because the Palestinians are apathetic toward Arafat and see Hamas as more effective in getting the Palestinian point across, but only marginally. Palestinians aren't happy with either; all they want is a decent livelihood. The problem is that if they are to obtain such a thing, Israel will have to make sacrifices, and then there's the whole possession is nine-tenths of the law thing.
        About 25% of Palestinians, according to Bir Zeit university polls, say that the 9/11 attacks were in accordance with Islamic law. Those are probably the hard core Hamas base of support.
        I don't believe in the success of a two-state solution because Palestinians will always believe that Israelis got the better deal, and since the Israelis will be better off regardless of the deal, it wouldn't be easy to dispel such a notion. Having one shared state with laws and policies that do not take into account religious differences or ethnicity pulls the rug out from under any Palestinian who would claim that Islam is being discriminated against.
        Not really. Just look at Islamists in other countries. Besides, neither country has a tradition of secular government nor does either want one. The whole concept looks like a western-Zionist plot to most Muslims and a secular plot to any Ultra-Orthodox Jew.
        And can you really say that the average Palestinian wants to take over the world? Why are all Palestinians megalomaniacs? It sounds to me like all they want is their own share of the world, a proportionate share.
        But you just said they will never be satisfied with any share given to them. This sounds like a bad idea - if the Palestinians can be jealous of another group's state, they can be jealous of another group's position in a state. And I don't claim that "the average Palestinian wants to take over the world," he just wants "all of Palestine, from the river to the sea." It's perfectly understandable.
        Here's a question: If the Palestinians are given such a share and religious fundamentalists continue to antagonize the situation by demanding more, why would they recieve any support from the Palestinian people at all? They would only be bringing strife down on the people, who would be satisfied with what they already had. Right now the Palestinians have nothing to lose; why wouldn't they support suicide bombers?
        If this worked, than then the FIS wouldn't have won the elections in Algeria. Fundamentalists have power all over the middle east, and it's not because of ethnic violence.
        If there is a problem re the growth of the muslim population, have the government impose a limit on how many kids both israelis and palestinians can have.
        That would be a totalitarian move which might finally unite muslim and Jew together in the spirit of killing Stalinist oppressors. Besides, such a move would be interperted as Israeli apartheid, genocide, or what have you by the Palestinians, and more or less the same by Orthodox Jews.
        This would keep the balance relatively equal. Of course, if the palestinians feel that the average israeli has more power than they do, their response will be to try and increase their own numbers. To avoid this problem the government must practice equality and provide equal representation.
        Those are very subjective notions.
        I think my view of human nature is actually extremely negative. In my post I pointed out how the natural human reaction to a situation like this was an act of violence. I suggest that the palestinians and israelis need to look past this automatic response and find a more well thought out solution. Violence only leads to more violence, and so forth.
        To make it simple, people who want something aren't stupid enough to fooled by smoke and mirrors. Trying to set up a formula to get rid of the issues won't work. They will remain. Islam and Judaism are much stronger than "the melting pot," "diversity," "power sharing," etc. The issues of how to divy up the pie will remain and be much worse. Your solution is like saying that the solution to a couple arguing about the divorce settlement is to force them to live together again and share all their possessions. Sharing doesn't work if either or both parties don't want to.
        I don't remember Hitler ever attacking America. But Osama Bin Laden's perception of America shows that yes, there are flaws in our democracy. If we inspire such responses, however illegitimate, then perhaps we need to alter the message that we send out to other nations.
        This is just blaming the victim, and is a bad way to go. It's just blaming the woman for her own rape on a national scale.
        I do not believe in a dynamic of evil people and good people. People can be evil some of the time and good some of the time, but they can never be ultimately defined as such. People change, mature, and regress. Any label attached to them will ultimately become inappropriate. The rhetoric used by the Bush administration perpetrates this primitive notion of a black and white world where it is easy to see who is good and who is bad. But there is neither evil nor good in this situation, only humanity.
        Right, and some people are more good than they are bad, and vice versa.
        I have no sympathy for those who say that they don't want to live next to a person of a different religious/ethnic group, regardless of the identity of the person. To try and be xenophobic and isolationist in this day and age is a sure recipe for disaster. You can't hide from people who aren't like you, especially if you're both trying to occupy the same space. This does not mean that I don't share these tendencies myself. I don't want to live in Harlem. But we have seen that both sides in this conflict often fail to grasp the concept of a compromise, and are thus spelling doom for a two-state situation.
        Well then I guess you can stop having sympathy for either side right now. Neither wants the solution you're proposing.
        Extremists and terrorists will never go away, but their support can easily fade, and subsequently their power. I do not accept that the two sides are in some kind of eternal power struggle that only one can survive. The notion of such a fated conflict gives rise to the conflict itself; it does not spring from it. Sharon is not some kind of modern-day Maccabeus; he has more in common with Joab, if anyone. Amos 9:14 doesn't exclude the presence of other peoples, you know...
        I don't know where this comes from. I've never suggested any of the things you seem to be responding to.

        Comment


        • Re: EU should bomb Israel and tell americans to mind their own business

          Originally posted by paiktis22
          Watching the news was disheartening. Palestinian schoolkids trying to escape the bombs of israeli F-16s that kept falling all around them (one kid didn't make it). Disgrace.
          just like the eu should bomb US after killing innocent Afghanis !!!!
          GM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71

          Comment


          • Paikis, to answer why the USA is so steadfast in it's support of Israel, I think there are several reasons.

            When Israel was born, Jews were not popular in the USA, there were places that were "restricted", meaning Jews were banned, but it couldn't be said out loud, it was a gentalman's agreement, so it's not completely from a love of the people.

            I think for one, we see them as ourselves were 200+ years ago, bravely fighting for their freedom against mighty hosts of enemies. This has strong appeal to many of us, the USA has always admired courage of this sort.

            Another factor is they are winners, they have yet to lose a war, and Americans love a winner.

            Still more is the deep ties, as many US citizens are also Israeli citizens.

            Also, Israel is a valiant and reliable ally, unaffraid to support the USA in places like the heavily biased and racist UN.

            At first, our support was because our enemy Russia supported the other side, but in Israel the USA found a grateful ally, that appreciated American help, and embraced the American way of life.

            Also, I feel many Americans find the Childlike behaviour of Islamic states disgusting, with their lack of freedoms, religious intolerence, intense racism, dishonest practices, mistreatment of women (who are second class citizens under medievil Islamic laws), blatent disregaurd for harming innocents, perchant for killing children, intense manipulation of the media (See children throwing rocks at soldiers), sickening disregaurd for human life, and hypocracy in the face of their own teachings, to name just a few.

            I cannot understand, no matter what the economic or tactical advantages, why we continue to support the evil that is the Saudis, the Eygpytians, and many other states.

            Add to it that the Islamics are cronic aggressors (The land Israel holds that is disputed came in defensive wars. I know that tecnically Israel struck first in 67, but the fact is, and it's undisputed, that the Islamics were going to attack in 24 hours, so the Jews did what was neccesary) who cannot be trusted to uphold agreements, and it paints an ugly picture.

            They are all big talk, but all they are really good at is killing unarmed innocents. When the Jews come, they come as clearly identified soldiers, not as non-combatants trying to kill children.

            I believe the Brits dislike Israel because the Jews were quite the terrorists themselves when the British had a mandate in Palestine (The Brits reneged on their promise of a Jewish homeland, promise given in WWI), and a combination of the others are i think, unfamilar with history, and do indeed hate the Jews, seeing only Jewish attrocities, never addmitting that the Islamics bring it on themselves with their murderous ways, which force Jewish retaliation. I also believe a large number of them are anti-semeyic, but try to cloak themselves in respectabilty, claiming they only want the best for the poor pals.

            Paikis my friend, you know I always say exactly what I think, without pulling punches or sparing feelings. These are my true beliefs on this subject.
            I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
            i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chris 62
              I believe the Brits dislike Israel because the Jews were quite the terrorists themselves when the British had a mandate in Palestine (The Brits reneged on their promise of a Jewish homeland, promise given in WWI), and a combination of the others are i think, unfamilar with history, and do indeed hate the Jews, seeing only Jewish attrocities, never addmitting that the Islamics bring it on themselves with their murderous ways, which force Jewish retaliation. I also believe a large number of them are anti-semeyic, but try to cloak themselves in respectabilty, claiming they only want the best for the poor pals.
              Apart from the very first portion of this sentence, this is complete nonsense! 'Israeli' is not the same thing as 'Jewish' and 'Palestinian' is not the same thing as 'Islamic'. If someone does not like the US, does that make them anti-anglosaxon? Of course not. Have you ever even been to Israel? Have you been to Palestine?

              Most 'Brits' condemn the violence from both sides. Any terrorist, anywhere in the world should be hunted down and punished. Terrorism should not be allowed to win ever!

              But that also includes Israeli terrorists - they should not be given special treatment, and I think it is disgusting how some people on these boards support or make excuses for their terrorist atrocities.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Rogan Josh
                Apart from the very first portion of this sentence, this is complete nonsense! 'Israeli' is not the same thing as 'Jewish' and 'Palestinian' is not the same thing as 'Islamic'. If someone does not like the US, does that make them anti-anglosaxon? Of course not. Have you ever even been to Israel? Have you been to Palestine?

                Most 'Brits' condemn the violence from both sides. Any terrorist, anywhere in the world should be hunted down and punished. Terrorism should not be allowed to win ever!

                But that also includes Israeli terrorists - they should not be given special treatment, and I think it is disgusting how some people on these boards support or make excuses for their terrorist atrocities.
                I totally agree. Terrorism, i.e. the delibrate attack against civilian targets when not in a declared state of war, is always bad. This is different from sabotage (which is against military targets).

                Although there was terrorism in Israel by Jews before the founding of the state, and it was bad, much of the attacks the Jews get blamed for did not occur against civilians - after all, a large proportion of the British in Israel at the time were either military or government personnel. This does not make it alright, but it deserves mention.
                I refute it thus!
                "Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rogan Josh


                  Apart from the very first portion of this sentence, this is complete nonsense! 'Israeli' is not the same thing as 'Jewish' and 'Palestinian' is not the same thing as 'Islamic'. If someone does not like the US, does that make them anti-anglosaxon? Of course not. Have you ever even been to Israel? Have you been to Palestine?

                  Most 'Brits' condemn the violence from both sides. Any terrorist, anywhere in the world should be hunted down and punished. Terrorism should not be allowed to win ever!

                  But that also includes Israeli terrorists - they should not be given special treatment, and I think it is disgusting how some people on these boards support or make excuses for their terrorist atrocities.
                  I think it's disgusting that you use the word terrorist in an arbitrary and meaningless manner as a label for people you don't like. Again: The King David Hotel was a military HQ.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mark L
                    And Israel's airforce? Ahem.

                    Israel: 295 F-16, 96 F-15
                    Sweden: 204 Gripen, 232 Viggen

                    Hell, even Sweden alone could beat Israel! If the French, British or Germans get involved Israel would have no airforce left in 2 days
                    Are you sure that the Swedish pilots can fly?
                    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Felch X
                      I'd say the Soviets had the baddest ass special forces (Spetznatz?). I'm not so sure if they still exist as an effective fighting force, but from what I heard, they were the roughest there ever was.
                      Oh yeah, they still exist.

                      Spetznaz (Short for Spetzialnoye Naznochenye = Special Assignment) are probably indeed the toughest bastards on earth.

                      However, Israel beats any EU country in Intelligence and Counter Intelligence.

                      If we managed to get KGB documents in the heat of the Cold War, we can anticipate and prevent this too.

                      And don't forget, with the ZOG power we can just buy you all


                      Btw, Paiktis, have you ever wondered what are children doing around palestinian military installations?

                      This night we bombed a police station which houses a mortar bomb factory. This is after the palestinians claimed they shut them down, and after yesterday 14 mortars hit Israeli settlements.


                      Back to topic.

                      France would give up as soon as Israeli airplanes will be in the air and will condemn all military actions.

                      Brittain is not part of the EU.

                      Northern european countries will decide that War in any form is immoral and their pilots will head back home.

                      Germany and Poland can't go to war on us for moral reasons (being Nazi and all - and yes, polans were mostly almost as bad as Nazis.)

                      As for eastern europe, even if poland jumps in, Israeli firms are almost monopolies in their economy. One step and their economy trashes.





                      Finally, back to paiktis, I suggest you don't use numbers alone to set your mind. By numbers alone, it would appear as if the USA was brutally massacaring Germans during WWII.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Natan
                        I think it's disgusting that you use the word terrorist in an arbitrary and meaningless manner as a label for people you don't like. Again: The King David Hotel was a military HQ.
                        I think this is part of the problem. How do you define terrorist?

                        Is it the killing of civilians in order to cause terror when war has not been declared? Then the King David Hotel falls under this category - lots of civilians were killed, and the bombing was obviously intented to cause terror.

                        But what if the perpetrator is an army of a country? Does that make it any different? Are the atrocities committed by the Israeli army under the command of Sharon terrorism too? If not, why not? The IRA are the Irish Republican Army but they are most definitely terrorists. Why should it matter which other countries recognise the existence of the state?

                        A short while ago, I watched a BBC news report which was showing a block of flats in Palestine which was being deliberately shelled by an Israeli tank (I saw the tanks doing the shelling on TV!). There were many women and children in the flats and we were shown pictures of traumatised children (although none were injured). Is this not terrorism but your own definition?

                        Or what about the pictures from a couple of days ago of children running from the bombs of Israeli F-16s?

                        Unfortunately it seems that some people only want to use the word 'terrorist' if it is their enemy.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                          Back to topic.

                          France would give up as soon as Israeli airplanes will be in the air and will condemn all military actions.

                          Brittain is not part of the EU.

                          Northern european countries will decide that War in any form is immoral and their pilots will head back home.

                          Germany and Poland can't go to war on us for moral reasons (being Nazi and all - and yes, polans were mostly almost as bad as Nazis.)

                          As for eastern europe, even if poland jumps in, Israeli firms are almost monopolies in their economy. One step and their economy trashes.
                          This is just silly. Do you honestly think that the US would back Israel in a EU-Israeli war?

                          And Britain is in the EU of course. No other country would be needed.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by David Floyd
                            If you wanna be REAL technical, Chris, the Jews are the ones who invaded what they refer to as the Holy Land - "the land of milk and honey" and all that...fought the Canaanites, Menonites, Amorites, etc., thousands of years ago.
                            Actually - no.

                            Jews are decendants of Canaanites.

                            If you believe the bible : Abraham (first Jew) was a canaanite until discovered God.

                            If you believe current historical research: There never was an exodus from Egypt. Jews are merely eveolved from Canaanite tribes and invented exodus so that they could have some common ground.

                            So let's not shed too many tears for the Jews...sure they got treated like ****, then again they treated other people like ****, and when it comes down to it virtually every group has gotten treated like **** at some point in time.

                            When was the last time in history when a nationality was destroyed just for being of that nationality?

                            Not for rebelling - not for political or territorial conflict. For reasons of race.

                            3 Groups:
                            Jews
                            Armenians
                            Gypsies

                            Comment


                            • Stupid thoughts to think that EU will bombs Israel.

                              Not because they are powerfull or they have the Bomb (we have too and surely most effective). They are military dangereous, of course, moreover they are supported by USA, but EU have money too for a war so I wonder who will win...

                              The point is not who will win, but why will we do it ?

                              To help palestinians ? For petrol ? For fun ?

                              What a stupid thread ...

                              Second point : EU don't have any common army yet !
                              Zobo Ze Warrior
                              --
                              Your brain is your worst enemy!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                                When was the last time in history when a nationality was destroyed just for being of that nationality?

                                Not for rebelling - not for political or territorial conflict. For reasons of race.

                                3 Groups:
                                Jews
                                Armenians
                                Gypsies
                                The Jews were originally dispersed because they rebelled against the Romans. It was not because of race. The Romans didn't give a toss about race - as long as you did what you were told you were fine. If you didn't you were crushed. The Jews didn't do what they were told and were crushed.

                                And this is 2000 years ago! Should the picts or the Iceni (who had very distinct cultures) be given their lands in Britain back because they were crushed by the Romans? Should the American indians be given the NA continent back and all whites expelled? Of course not.

                                Comment

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