EU should bomb Israel and tell americans to mind their own business

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

@ Eli
You really should read up on the history of the IDF, whoever you are who Eli responded to.

About the more current discussion: I agree with Pakitis and Natan. The fact is, that until the Aqza Intifada some 75% or the Israelis supported the ideas of Oslo, although about a third of those didn't believe it would be achieved. If Arafat had accepted Barak's offer at Camp David, there would be a PALESTINIAN STATE WITH JERUSALEM AS IT'S CAPITAL, RIGHT NOW. Instead they started the Intifada and now they're NOT gonna get a state for 10 years at least. Real smart, huh?
Come On, I want an end to this a million times more than all the Euro d00dz put together, since I'm HERE, and I'm the one who's actually affected by it all, but I also want a Jewish state to exist, despite all its many flaws. I also do want a Palestinian state to exist, preferably as Israel's ally number one. Although this is not very likely now.

[Saint Marcus]

Brittain is not part of the EU.

Since when? Britain is a very important member of the EU, they just didn't join the Euro.

EU don't have any common army yet !

In one week we will have. Honestly. The ERRF will be declared operational next week.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Most of the Jews who currently live in Israel either weren't born there, or were born to parents who weren't born there. The vast majority, I'd imagine. So really, it's a state being set up to pander to a specific religion because they got mistreated. In return, they get to mistreat people from another religion

1. Most of the Jews can, if they try track their roots to judean jews. It is a fact, that most jews with last name Cohen (or Katz or Kogan) share a unique gene, which can be traced to one father of the Cohanim (Jewish Priests).

2. Most of the palestinians were born to parents (or grandparents) who weren't born there, but rather immigrated to Israel during 1890-1948 because of the economic boom brought by Jewish emigration. Jews began developing swamp land into the fertile lands we know today in the coast strip.

3. Jews haven't mistreated any arabs when they came to settle here. Infact they hired arabs and learnt from them.

4. Around the late 20's, arab religious leaders began to fear for their status in the eyes of the brittish, since Jewish immigrants flowing to Israel were more educated and capabale and growing in number.

5. In 1929 the first Intifada ever started, after arab religious leaders began a propoganda claiming Jews want to drive arabs out and desicrate their holy sites to set up their own. An idiotic notion, since most Zionist thinkers up to those days thought of ways to live side by side with arabs, and were infact completely non-religious and mostly even atheists.

if either Israel disappeared or at the VERY least started treating them fairly and decently

Israel is treating Israeli-Arabs, most of whom define themselves palestinian in nationality, like regular citizens. The only thing different in law is that they are not called to serve in IDF though they can offer themselves, because of the obvious problems of possibly fighting relatives.

Israel is treating beduin, druz and other minorities like it's citizens and no one complains.

The only problem is with fundaments like water and electricity. Many of the arabs and druz and beduins still choose to live in nomadic tribes and refuse to settle in big cities for long periods of time, a thing which makes providing the connections very hard.

I wouldn't say the reltaions between israeli arabs and jews are perfect, but that's because of the conflict and that's only recently.

In the 50s and 60s, the arabs living in Israel thought of themselves as Israelis and took pride of the Israeli flag.

Those living in the territories were however, since 1948 under the control of Jordan, and living very poorly. After 1967 Israel invested money in fundaments until at some point the arabs there defined themselves as palestinians and Israel understood that those areas won't be happy to incorporate into Israel and then slowed down on developing them.

I'm not anti-semitic. I'm anti-Israel. I also don't have a whole lot of patience for people who believe that Jews are blameless and for some reason deserve a homeland. And I didn't see you deny that, according to the Old Testament, Jews inflicted horrible atrocities on others.

I'm sure that If I find what your ancestors did 5000 years ago, you won't be proud.

Let's not go that far. Until the late 19th century your country supported slavery.

Slavery existed here during Biblical times, but the Bible put many social laws in defense of slaves from exploitation - those are often misquoted by bible thrashers to say that "the Bible supprots slavery".

I'm sure more Jews died in the Holocaust than in any other war in history. So did more Russians. For that matter, Stalin killed more Ukrainians than ever died in the history of war. Mao killed more Chinese. So what? Should the friends or descendants of those killed get their own homeland carved out of the worst imaginable spot? Because if religion and oppression are good reasons, then political differences and oppression must be equally good, eh?

Stalin killed ukranians because they resisted his rule.
Mao killed Chinese who resisted him.
Hitler killed Jews who were Jews.

Get the difference?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Mark L
Since when? Britain is a very important member of the EU, they just didn't join the Euro.

They don't want to be in the EU
They don't like to be considered europe.

Their government now is inventing every excuse to explain how Britain isn't loosing that much because of joining EU.

Brits like to be brits.

In one week we will have. Honestly. The ERRF will be declared operational next week.

Really?
According to Blair this won't be an Army, but rather an organization under which's roof different armies could have joint operations.

Still, while this group will be under EU command, each country can decide whether to send troops for the current mission.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
They don't want to be in the EU
They don't like to be considered europe.

Their government now is inventing every excuse to explain how Britain isn't loosing that much because of joining EU.

Brits like to be brits.
[

Agree with you. It is difficult for all european country to accept the law of the community. But Britain shows the less will to become europeans.

EU will not maybe succeed, but at least we try.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
They don't want to be in the EU
They don't like to be considered europe.

Where do you get this from? If there were a vote in the UK tomorrow on whether or not the UK should be in the EU, the vote would be overwhelmingly in favour of EU membership.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

I'm happy to read that, but you're quite late.
Lot of country will enter in euro zone, in few days, you know ?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
I'm happy to read that, but you're quite late.
Lot of country will enter in euro zone, in few days, you know ?

You are confusing the EU with the Euro. The countries in the EU are not the same as the countries adopting the Euro. The EU = European Union is a political union. The Euro is to be a common currancy adopted by many European states. Also Europe is a different thing from European Union.

If there were elections tomorrow the British would vote for the EU, but against the Euro.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Outside of that, I'd prefer NO Jewish state. If they HAD to have one, I'd suggest an island out in the Pacific somewhere, preferably uninhabited. Or maybe the uninhabited part of Papua New Guinea.

If you as you stated are against Willson's principle of the right for self declaration (which is now a principle of the UN Human Rights!), why is it that you can't accept the situation as it is now and choose to ignore palestinian right of self definition?

I'm not suggesting to ignore them. I'm for respecting them all the way. And while I see how people could be lead into thinking terrorists are "freedom fighters" I don't believe that it is right to target innocent civilians.

I can accept strikes on Israeli bases, or even settlements as freedom fighting, though being a subjective Israeli I am not supporting the fight.

Was Germany mistreated in Versailles? Damn right. Should we have accepted WWII as just? No.

First we stop the violence by armed means, and only then can we deal with the problem.

If we deal with the problem before violence will quell, the violent factors will see it as a victory and from now on will think of violence as a just mean of forcing solutions.

The worst thing you can do is offer understanding to those who try to achieve things by violence and terror. This is not to be confused with armed attempts to quell violence and terror - such as Allied action against the Nazis, American against the Taliban or Israeli against Hamas, Jihad and now the PLO.

So you're telling me that the terrorist attacks on Israel AREN'T because Israel exists?

They are exactly because Israel exist, rather than because of occuption as the terracts started much before the occupation. It's just that right now they are mostly originating from those areas.

But that doesn't mean that we have to fulfil every terrorist's wet dream, and certainly doesn't make the notion that Israel shouldn't exist a right one.

Didn't Nazis murder Jews because they exist?
Does it mean the Jews had to stop existing to please them?

Greeks always lived in Greater Hellas or Hellas, they never abandoned flag or submited spirit while on their grounds.

Neither did jews.
There are communities of jews that stayed here from the founding of Israel. Some of the popular judean cult and some of other cults like Karaim.

However, we didnt' exactly "leave and forget".

We were last forced out by Rome. We gave them a very good fight (read about Bar-Kochva and about the Roman 5 year long siege on Massada) but come on - Roman legions against the small autonomy of Judea?? Did we ever stand a chance?

And we were deported. That was a very popular measure when conquering during Biblical times. To remind you - the laws banning deportation of local people are very new.

Plus, Paiktis, we already had a thriving commerical kindom, and managed to split it, then to be deported once and lose a temple, comeback, build another temple, set up another kingdom, be deported again and comeback - all long before Hellenism united greece.

Israel seems to be an artificial state. Were there Jews under captivity in that region?

There were jewish communities all throgh the byzantine then the arab rule of this area.

These were connected to religious jewish communities world wide, until the late medeval era.

It seems Israel is just a projection of western interests in the region. It also serves american interests and that's why it is so heavily protected and praised in US and UK? media.

A. You're right. We owe our existance to the fact that the west does want to have a safe stronghold in that strategic area.
B. UK media? depends who. BBC are doing what they can to be MOBIUS. SKY news are mostly impartial, though often lacking deep analysis (still better than CNN analysis). Also, at times SKY tend to be () Pro-Israel!!

Who's to say that these people deserve to have a state formed and those do not? : The interests big powers have.

That's what's been driving the world for the last centuries if you haven't noticed.

What is important is that Palestinians should be allowed to live free. I think they have proven (much more than the Israelis) their craving for freedom.

Oh, so using terrorism is proof of craving for "freedom"?
So those who do threaten innocent civilians are more just?

How can one be on the side of an armed to the theeth people and not on the side of the deprived and the enslaved?

They aren't deprived.
The only thing they're deprived of is actual sovereignity and under the blockade now - free trade.

Sovereignity could ahve been solved if Arafat wasn't a jerck in Camp David.

They are enslaved by Arafat who is the leader defacto.

That is why Israeli casualties take second place to Palestinian deaths. Israel has arms and the support of the world's remaining super power. What do the palestinians have?

Just because someone is armed and better suited doesn't make him less right.

Consider - police vs. criminals. america vs. taliban & el-qaida.

With what weapons are they supposed to fight for their freedom?

Ahm.. why not sit down and talk?
Israel has been rather talkative. Especially around camp david, following which Arafat started this fight because he wanted to achieve more.

Was there ever formed a palestinian state? No, because it is not in the interest of the big powers of today's world.

No, because until the 70s there wasn't a nationality of palestinians. IIRC PLO was named after Palestine only several years AFTER it was formed.

How can I have sympathy for people dropping bombs with sophisticated weaponry and the others fighting back with rocks?

Was it a rock that took that lives of 26 Israelis?

And Sharon having a clean hand to do whatever he pleases upon innocents. Who the hell does he think he is? If he ever visites an EU country he is to be arrested for crimes against humanity. And it is this man who leads Israel. And he is allowed to do so when people like Milosevic were taken care of. Why?

Please read an impartial (non PC or BBC or CNN) review of Arafat's deeds.

I also wonder why do you persecute Sharon, a man possibly reponsible for the massacares, when the actual warlord that performed this is sitting freely and safely in Lebanon, and IIRC is now a Minister!!!

[Saint Marcus]

Europe is not EU is not Euro-zone

Three seperate notions with three seperate meanings.

And while Britain doesn't want to be part of the Euro-zone, they do want to be part of the EU.

According to Blair this won't be an Army, but rather an organization under which's roof different armies could have joint operations.

Blair can say all he wants, everyone else calls it an army. If it looks like an army, if it acts like an army, and if it fights like an army, it is an army.

[Saint Marcus]

I also wonder why do you persecute Sharon, a man possibly reponsible for the massacares, when the actual warlord that performed this is sitting freely and safely in Lebanon, and IIRC is now a Minister!!!

Others, including Arafat himself, are wanted in Belgium too. Sharon isn't the only one.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by paiktis22

Eli, why don't your pilots fly up to the aegean one time? Come on if you can even reach Crete I'll buy you a kebab or something

You Elder of Zion

I was in Crete this summer for a weekend.

Only I mistakenly posted here that I was going to Cyprus ....

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
You are confusing the EU with the Euro. The countries in the EU are not the same as the countries adopting the Euro. The EU = European Union is a political union. The Euro is to be a common currancy adopted by many European states. Also Europe is a different thing from European Union.

If there were elections tomorrow the British would vote for the EU, but against the Euro.

Oh, I perfectly know that.
I would mean that while you're still wondering if you will enter in EU, lot of country have entered in an upper stage : the euro !

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
Oh, I perfectly know that.
I would mean that while you're still wondering if you will enter in EU, lot of country have entered in an upper stage : the euro !

The UK has been in the EU for years.

The Euro has nothing to do with the EU. There will be countries who are not in the EU who use the Euro as their currency.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
The UK has been in the EU for years.

Yes, they were at the beginning of the project with Germany and France and Italia.

First it was the "European comminity of the coil" (I'm not sure of the english translation ...).

But since they have always the less motivated (maybe for good reason).

The Euro has nothing to do with the EU.

Technicaly, yes. But not in spirit ...

It's a secondary way for EU.