What Kind Of America Is This?

[Frodo]

I think it's foolish to compare Falun Gong to the Taliban. In fact, I can't think of any similarities between the two at all. Falun Gong was a religious movement that didn't harm anyone; but too many people subscribed to it, and therefore it was seen as subversive. How does that compare to the Taliban?

Also, I'm not going be content simply because I'm not "living in hell."

[drake]

If I'm accusing the government of anything, it's of threatening to restrict liberties. If I waited until freedom of speech was gone to protest its removal, then, well, I wouldn't be able to.

Relax chief, no ones taking away anything from you. Unless you think you're going to be on the fbi list of suspected terrorists.

[faded glory]

There is nothing wrong with this.

It is no different in 1944 when Nazi collaborators in GI uniforms were found during the Battle of the Bulge. They were put on a quick trial and shot.

No freedoms being taken away...unless of course you are a terrorist

[Chris 62]

Hmm, interesting thread.

Che, tell me, what Communist government, real or projected, includes the provisions of the US Constituition in reguard to civil liberties and/or personal freedoms?

As for the topic, as always, it will be the people of the USA that will decide if said laws go far enough, or are indeed, to far in reguards to personal freedoms.

Trying suspects under the UCMJ means GREATLY limiting their defense, these codes don't allow all the leeway of civilian courts.

As for the 70s being more free than today, i have to disagree.

My teenage memories of that era is only of termoil and dis-illusionment, not of great freedoms.

Right wingers stealing freedoms are dangerous, but so are left wingers allowing to much freedoms, for that road leads to anachy.

Someone mentioned the RICO stautes, well, they broke the back of the mob, and finally put the Capos behind bars, so they served their purpose.

Being detained for no reason is another matter, and I think of Franklin's quote of "All citizens have the right to a speedy trial".
I agree with him, detaining the innocent is monsterous.

This matter needs to be examined most carefully.
It is potenally quite damaging to the American way of life.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by drake
I'm a little less naive about a few things, but day to day life is the same.

I doubt I'll ever be in a position where I am suspected of anything. I keep to myself, don't draw any attention and abide by the law. So do I feel MY rights are being violated? Not really.

You doubt you're ever be in such a position? Probably true. But as Che said, which do you think is more likely? That you'll be wrongly accused of a serious crime, or you'll be the victim of a terrorist attack? If you chose (b), you've been watching far too much television news...

Your rights aren't being violated? Fair enough; perhaps they aren't--yet. But thousands are having their rights violated. Isn't this a problem? It sounds to me that you're actually being a bit more naive about a few things.

Why do we have a Constitution, if not to protect us (ALL of us) in times of crisis?

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Frodo
I think it's foolish to compare Falun Gong to the Taliban. In fact, I can't think of any similarities between the two at all. Falun Gong was a religious movement that didn't harm anyone; but too many people subscribed to it, and therefore it was seen as subversive. How does that compare to the Taliban?

Not harming anyone? I bet you only read or watch Western Medias. If family members forcibly prevent one from having medical treatment, I don't know what "harming" really means. As for similarities, Falun Gong and Taliban both are preaching non-sense under the cover of the religion. The difference is that Falun Gong has not fortunately been able to usurp the power.

[GNGSpam]

The issue that seems to not have been touched here is that one of the primary reasons for the special courts is to establish secrecy.

If you bring a terrorist to trial, this requires evidence that he/she is a terrorist. This often will include nationally sensetive information on terrorist networks and such. Information that people stacked their lives to aquire, information that we would prefer the group we are targetting not know we have.

Therefore, to air this sensetive secret information in an open court where anyone can aquire a transcript is, I mean come on, idiotic in ways you couldnt even imagine.

Come on guys, lets be sensible here.

The FBI wont bring a small time Mafia member to court because he doesnt want to expose his source until he has the big guys. Hence investigation taking years sometimes, as though they could bust any number of small timers, they dont want to expose their information.

The same principle applies with the CIA and Terrorist, the issue is though that the CIA CANT let the Terrorist go in hopes of getting the bigger fish, because any terrorist is capable of sowing, well, terror.

An example of how information gets leaked. The CIA had been keeping pretty good tabs on Bin Laden via his cellphone communications for sometime. But in the process of blaming him from the Embassy bombings in Africa, it was leaked that they had been keeping tabs on his cell phone calls.

BAM

No more cell phone calls from Bin Laden since then. We havent been able to keep as good a trace on him since that point.

This is what the courts are aiming toprevent. I applaude the government for still allowing trial at all. Quite frankly the risk of leaking valuable information is still high. But they wanted to find some solution that allowed a fair trial, and unfourtantly that requires strict secrecy.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by GNGSpam
The issue that seems to not have been touched here is that one of the primary reasons for the special courts is to establish secrecy.

And the problem with that is that it's awfully hard for an innocent man or woman to disprove secret evidence if they don't even know what it is.

[Wraith]

--"Besides a few minutes of discomfort, did this ruin your day?"

Random searches like this can do a lot more than provide "a few minutes of discomfort". You might want to check what was going on in California regarding legal pot before the feds stepped in to nullify the law.
These rules are also tied to other things. You can be arrested for crimes that carry no jail time as possible sentences. Your assessts can be siezed on the slimmest of reasons, and good luck getting them back (a lot of people have lost their businesses, homes, and more to this). A lot of people have lost a lot without any actual wrong-doing. One guy, for instance, lost his private charter jet service because he once carried a guy that the FBI or DEA later suspected of being involved in drugs in some way. Note that in this instance the agency agreed that there was no possible way this guy could have known that at the time, and that he had nothing to do with any drug business whatsoever, and yet they siezed his plane anyway.

--"I'd be willing to bet that more guilty people walk free then innocent people get jailed becase of the lousy legal system and technicalities."

I'm much more worried about the number of things that are being made illegal. Legality is not a judge of the morality of the action, and most of the laws these days seem designed to harras moral people that to inconvience actual crooks.

--"America is a Democracy"

No, not really. We're a Democratic Republic. Our Consitution is a list of restrictions on government power. It was designed as it was because the founders acknowledged that the majority does not make right, but that there are some rights that no number of people can justly remove.

As far as the definiton of terrorist goes, well, you'd be surprised how much it's been stretched already. You think someone who cracked a website to post a political message is a terrorist? The government does. How long before the Demopublicans decide to declare the Green Party and the Libertarian Party terrorist organizations?

Wraith
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."
-- Ayn Rand

[faded glory]

Well unless you are making bombs who are in touch with al-quada someway you arent exactly innoncent. Those are the only people will be targetted.


What the hell is the big fuss about?

This wont effect anybody.

[drake]

You doubt you're ever be in such a position? Probably true. But as Che said, which do you think is more likely? That you'll be wrongly accused of a serious crime, or you'll be the victim of a terrorist attack? If you chose (b), you've been watching far too much television news...

Your rights aren't being violated? Fair enough; perhaps they aren't--yet. But thousands are having their rights violated. Isn't this a problem? It sounds to me that you're actually being a bit more naive about a few things.

Why do we have a Constitution, if not to protect us (ALL of us) in times of crisis?

I don't suspect I'll be wrongly accused of a serious crime or be a victim of a terrorist attack. Of course, thats what everyone thinks. But obviously, both do happen. Odds mean very little to me. What happens, happens. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time can happen to anyone anywhere.

Who are the thousands having their rights violated? Please give specific examples. And describe how their rights are being violated.

Why wouldnt we all be protected? What did I say that applies to only myself? They arent arresting people on a hunch. Even if the people they detain are completely innocent, some red flag went up to arose suspicion didn't it?

Yes, there will be screwups and people who have never done anything wrong in their entire life will probably be arrested. But these same people will also be quickly released as has been going on in the fbi's current investigation. If they arrested me today, I would be outraged and hurt, violated, but most likely understandable. Covering all bases, even semi-suspicious IS the best way to go.....and I think the innocent people who are in-convenienced by this will understand.

gngspam has some good points. Some people want every shred of information that the government has so they can cast their own judegment and ruling...but thats not how its going to work. As he said, the sort of information released from an investiagtion or trial could be very damaging.

We now just have to trust and have faith. At this point, theres little else any of us can do.

[chequita guevara]

My Day At the Airport

By Nancy Oden

On Thursday, November 1, 2001, I left my farmhouse on the North Coast of Maine, where I'm an organic grower, and headed for the Bangor International Airport in Bangor, Maine. I was dressed conservatively in a long, brown skirt with a matching jacket and turtleneck sweater, no jewelry, no buttons or other political indications attached, looking very like other women my age in this part of the world.

I am a relatively well known environmental, social, and political activist who has run for public office. It should be noted that, while I've been an activist for over thirty years, I've never been arrested, nor has there been anything in my life that would signal I meant harm to anyone.

Also, this was the third time this year I had traveled out of (or attempted to, in this case) Bangor Airport on American Airlines using an e-ticket purchased from Priceline.com bought weeks before with my own credit card. They had no reason for profiling and singling me out. It had to have been because of my political views which, of course, is not a good reason (see U.S. Constitution's first Ten Amendments, otherwise known as the Bill of Rights).

I was headed for Chicago for a Green Party USA National Coordinating Committee meeting, where I was to speak the next night on biochemical warfare and pesticides as weapons of war. I was also scheduled to interview job applicants, present several proposals and financial reports, and so on. I am a lead person on the National Coordinating Committee of the Green Party USA (the original Green Party, although there is now another which took a very similar name).

I arrived at the Bangor Airport the now-requisite two hours ahead of the flight and walked in to the airport to the sight of a couple of dozen National Guard troops carrying machine guns in their hands wandering around the lobby. I walked down to the American Airlines ticket counter, where there were no other passengers, and told the airlines ticket agent my name. I was holding out my picture ID and the printed itinerary they told us to bring, but he barely glanced at them. I remember thinking, "Does he have a picture of me under that counter? Why didn't he look at my ID?"

No one checked my ID at any time. They all knew what I looked like and, it became clear, my antiwar stance. I am not that well known that they would have known me on sight. Why were they briefed about me before I arrived at the airport? What were they told? Was it the FBI or some other agency? Which one?

The ticket agent spent an inordinate amount of time on his computer, then finally produced a boarding pass with a large "S" written on it. I asked him what that meant, and he said I had been picked to have my bags searched. Well, one expects that now, so I said, "Oh, that's okay." But I had a feeling there was more.
. . .

Full article

[chequita guevara]

Gimme Some Truth, Now

by Harry Browne

It is time for President Bush to stop the cheer-leading and speak the truth.

He said last Thursday, "This great nation will never be intimidated. . . . Life in America is going forward."

Who is he trying to kid? Last Friday at Los Angeles airport I saw people trying to check their baggage - standing in a line that was at least 200 yards long. I stood in five separate lines to identify myself and my carryon luggage. The soldiers in fatigues with submachine guns reminded me of a Third World country.

The politicians live in their own unreal world, with no idea of what's happening in America. How many times has Air Force One been late taking off? How many security lines have Donald Rumsfeld, Tom Ridge, and **** Cheney stood in?

They care little about the traveling businessman who now must cut his work short at lunchtime in order to catch a 5pm flight. Or the individual who must get up at 4am to catch a morning flight.


...

Full article

[DinoDoc]

Damn it, che. Post links if your going to post numerous articles.

[chequita guevara]

Okay.