What Kind Of America Is This?

[drake]

Innocent people have gone to jail in the past, will go to jail in the present and will go to jail in the future. The whole law system blows, and it always has. This hasn't changed in the past 30 years.

Innocent people still go to jail because of bad investigative work and guilty people still walk free because of bad investigative work.

Loss of 4th Amendment protections reulted in me being stopped and searched by the police. I was doing nothing illegal, just walking around after dark with my best friend who was heading out to the West Coast the next day. I was 24 at the time, as was my buddy. We weren't tresspassing or smoking or drinking, suddenly three police cars are surrounding me and my buddy and going through our things.

Besides a few minutes of discomfort, did this ruin your day?

I've had my car searched before in random searches at both police road blocks and while on military bases. Didn't take one slight bit of offense. Why? Because I knew there was a possibility that a criminal could actually be caught by such procedures. If so, my few minutes of discomfort were worth it IMO.

Did I like it? No, not particularly. But did it make me want to start yelling and cursing about the goddam intrusive government? No, not particularly.

Even if that were accepted, you're missing the bigger picture--what of the innocent people accused of terrorism and put on trial under these new guidelines? What realistic chance do they have of proving their innocence before a military tribunal? There's about an equal chance of the Carolina Panthers winning the Super Bowl this season.

You act as though a military tribunal is some kind of joke. I'd put more faith in them then in civilian court to make a good decision personally.

If one cannot be proven guilty, they're not going to get punished. It's not like everyone accused of terrorism goes right from the court house to the gallows. This isn't a goddam witch hunt.

So hope you aren't one of the huge number of innocent people who go to prison. And with one out of every 100 Americans in the penal system, your odds are better of being convicted of something you didn't do than being in a terrorist event.

I'd be willing to bet that more guilty people walk free then innocent people get jailed becase of the lousy legal system and technicalities. For example, because some crackhead that just murdered 5 people wasn't read his rights he goes free?

If significant evidence is available, I don't think it should matter where it came from or how it was aquired.

Anyways, I'm ranting, and this thread is getting off topic, so I'll stop.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Oh Please, and of course, none of the ACP memembers here remember that when various states o f emergency ended in this country (starting with the Civil War, all the way up to WW2) everything went right back to normal!

Sit down and chill. Countrary to Most furriners beliefs, America is a Democracy. We do pride ourselves on Peaceful,if not always smooth, transitions in government policies.

Small comfort to the innocent people jailed or bankrupted or blacklisted or executed during those "various states of emergency."

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Guynemer


Small comfort to the innocent people jailed or bankrupted or blacklisted or executed during those "various states of emergency."

Yeah, those poor traitors, spies, terrorists, and supporters. My sympathy for them is massive.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Yeah, those poor traiters, spies, terrorists, and supporters. My sympathy for them is massive.

Either you didn't read what I wrote, or you're a fascist. I said "innocent people." I'm not sure how I could be more clear.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Oh Please, and of course, none of the ACP memembers here remember that when various states o f emergency ended in this country (starting with the Civil War, all the way up to WW2) everything went right back to normal!

Things didn't get back to normal after WWII until after a massive social upjheaval 20 years later, collectively known as the 60s. I don't want to have to spend two decades of my life like that.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Guynemer


Small comfort to the innocent people jailed or bankrupted or blacklisted or executed during those "various states of emergency."

Better than thousands of innocent people being killed by terrorists who would otherwise be in jail.

Regardless what Bush does or is trying to do, he couldn't possibly come close to what China is practicing now. Do you think Chinese people are living that terrible?

[Felch]

All of this happened during World War II and the Civil War. In fact if you want an example of the government restricting freedom of speech, how about Federal Hill in Baltimore? During the Civil War, Licoln placed artillery there to quell any anti-Union sentiment in the city.

And you want to know something? Nobody cares. Nobody cares because the south, and its practice of slavery, was evil. Nobody cares about any crimes against freedom committed during the Second World War because Nazism is evil. And nobody will care about this because our enemies today are evil.

Although I agree with you on the Fourth Ammendment rights that have been restricted by the drug war, this is unrelated. And frankly I don't care if a bunch of Marxists are labled as terrorists. I'd rather not have the dictatorship of the proletariet any time soon, thank you very much. I seriously doubt that any non-violent protesters would be labled as terrorists.

As far as anti-poverty groups who march against free trade, they need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that free trade is what reduces poverty and creates wealth.

Guynemer, the Constitution was not intended to advocate the rights of the accused. It was intended to expand the powers of the national government. It was ammended to protect our rights.

Lonestar is right. This is simply being done because we are going on a war footing. It'll go away when it's not needed anymore.

(Just as the state will whither and die, Che. Every single time I come here I'm amazed there are still herdlike Communists like you walking the planet. Lighten up, this is just the standard operating procedure for fighting terrorism.)

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Transcend
Better than thousands of innocent people being killed by terrorists who would otherwise be in jail.

Well, by that logic, why not lock up everyone? That way we can be sure every terrorist is jailed, and no one gets killed. What a joyous day that would be.

[Frodo]

Pointing to another country with a bad human rights record doesn't excuse ours. I'm sure that the Chinese people (Falun Gong comes to mind) aren't exactly delighted with their freedoms, or lack thereof.

And pointing to the similar methods used in WWII, again, does not make it right today. Is our government so incompetent that we have to resort to this sort of thing just to "win the war on terrorism"? Our leaders spewed out the "we will not change our way of life" rhetoric after 9/11; well, now it's changing, and they are the ones initiating the change.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Well, by that logic, why not lock up everyone? That way we can be sure every terrorist is jailed, and no one gets killed. What a joyous day that would be.

Silly Guynemer, we only lock up innocent people in this country when they have dark skin. Don't you know anything? White people don't go to jail unless they actually commit a crime.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Frodo
Our leaders spewed out the "we will not change our way of life" rhetoric after 9/11; well, now it's changing, and they are the ones initiating the change.

My daily habits haven't changed. My way of life hasn't changed. We're still free to say what we want, when we want. You're accusing the government of restricting liberties when it hasn't done any such thing. In fact, you're guilty of the crime you accuse the government of committing.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by drake
Besides a few minutes of discomfort, did this ruin your day?

Spending half an hour being searched and interrogated by the cops when instead I could have been hanging out with my best friend whom I wasn't going to see again for many years.

It was a major intrusion in my life and it's time with a friend I can't get back. I only get to spend a few hours with him every few years, so that really sucked. Do I care if it may have helped the cops find some guy with a joint? Not in the least.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Frodo
Pointing to another country with a bad human rights record doesn't excuse ours. I'm sure that the Chinese people (Falun Gong comes to mind) aren't exactly delighted with their freedoms, or lack thereof.

My purpose was to show that even the US human rights declined to the point like the People's Republic of China, you would still not be living in hell. Actually, that People's Republic is doing really well and attracts many oversea ethnic Chinese.

As for the Falun Gong, I think they are the same sort of idiots like the Talibans.



Guynemer,

Who says about locking up everyone? Don't twist anything to the extreme, please. Remember, there are some very very dangerous persons in this world whose capture or killing can and will justify innocents being sacrificed. Hitler was one of them.

[Frodo]

If I'm accusing the government of anything, it's of threatening to restrict liberties. If I waited until freedom of speech was gone to protest its removal, then, well, I wouldn't be able to.

I could say "well, they may be dead, but my life hasn't changed, so I"m not worried" in response to the attacks on America. "I'm still alive, therefore we shouldn't take any measures to protect ourselves from terrorists." But that would be stupid, wouldn't it?

[drake]

It was a major intrusion in my life and it's time with a friend I can't get back. I only get to spend a few hours with him every few years, so that really sucked. Do I care if it may have helped the cops find some guy with a joint? Not in the least.

Timing blows no doubt. But a major intrusion???

Dope probably shouldnt be illegal anyway, but thats another discussion.

My daily habits haven't changed. My way of life hasn't changed. We're still free to say what we want, when we want. You're accusing the government of restricting liberties when it hasn't done any such thing. In fact, you're guilty of the crime you accuse the government of committing.

Exactly. Thats what I've been searching for, yet no one can provide. My life hasn't changed one iota. I'm a little less naive about a few things, but day to day life is the same.

I doubt I'll ever be in a position where I am suspected of anything. I keep to myself, don't draw any attention and abide by the law. So do I feel MY rights are being violated? Not really.