What Kind Of America Is This?

[DinoDoc]

I think that David's right. I don't think that the SCOTUS will strike this measure down since the precident for this goes back to George Washington's presidency, at least according ot CNN.

che: Hell according to my professor, the government has labeled the NRA a subersive organization so what you say isn't suprising.

To All: Can anyone give me a comparison between civilian criminal codes and the UCMJ (what I assume will be used in these tribunals)?

[drake]

Che your bravery astounds me

What exactly is coming? What is the price? Please enlighten us all. I'm curious as to how something like this effects me, or you for that matter, on a personal level.

[chequita guevara]

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.� -- Martin Niemoeller

You know, you can boil a live frog to death without the frog trying to escape. You put the frog in a pot of cool water. Slowly you turn the heat up, just a little. When the frog has acclimated, you turn the heat up a little more. In this way, you can raise the water to boiling, without the frog jumping out when it would if you simply dropped it in a pot of boiling water. . . . It works for people too.

BTW, I'm not that brave. I'm trying to decide whether I should be one of those raging against the night to no effect and maybe die honorably or if I should git while the gittin's good.

[General Ludd]

I completely agree with what you are saying, Che.

[drake]

I fail to see your points.

Who are "they" at this point and who are they coming for?

On a personal level, I think American citizens as a whole, have more rights than they ever had.

Name a point in history where your average every day American citizen has had more rights than today.

I don't see how something like this will effect the rights and priviledges of your average citizen.

The temperature in the pot is a comfortable luke warm and I don't see the temperature rising.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by drake
Name a point in history where your average every day American citizen has had more rights than today.

The 1970s.

Okay, Drake, the point is this: American protest groups (right and left) are being labled as terrorist or potential terroist groups. Under the latest laws, under these executive orders, under the current climate of fear and propaganda the courts are unlikely to strike them down. Historically the courts have never struck down these draconian laws during war.

Several years ago I was forwarded a list of groups included on the FBI's list of terrorist organizations (I realize it's hearsay). On the list were various unoins, such as the Teamsters, the United Autoworkers, and the United Steelworkers. Catholic nuns, such as the Mayknoll Sisters have been labled terrorist groups in the past (the '80s) because they created an underground railroad for political refugees escaping from the Central American terrorist governments our government called allies.

According to Dino the NRA is a suspect organization (mush as I despise their politics, I will defend them). The FBI has publically labeled certain leftist groups (Workers World, Take Back the Streets, Canival Against Capitalism—I just saw the damned interview yesterday can't find the link) as potential terrorists.

But yeah, I guess since it doesn't effect you, why should you care? But then, why do you care about terrorism, since it will never effect you? You stand a better chance of being struck byu lightening then being involved in a terrorist attack.

Maybe, Drake, this is just wrong, and should be stood up to as something terribly immoral and unconsitutional. Maybe it is just one more sign of impending doom. All I know is that since the '80s, our rights have slowly been erroded, and we just took a big hit.

[DinoDoc]

I really wish that someone would come up with a definition of terrorism that has a chance of being widely accepted.

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
All I know is that since the '80s, our rights have slowly been erroded, and we just took a big hit.

Just? This particular power has been available to presidents since George Washington.

The parts of the Patriot Act that go against judicial precident scare me a lot more than this.

[drake]

Expand a bit......

Since the 70's, what rights have been eroded?
How has it gotten worse for your average citizen?

Also, do you really think this latest act was created because of the teamsters or catholic nuns ( )?

Intimidation from a union for instance and the murder of thousands of innocent people certainly goes into different categories of terrorism wouldnt you say?

I would say this is a very targeted act. One that won't be abused.

But who knows.........

Impending doom ?

[chequita guevara]

4th Amendment protections against unreasonable searches and seizures for one thing, in the name of the drug war.

1st Amendment protections from religion (freedom of religion means freedom from other people's religions).

5th Amendment protections against cruel and unsual punishments.

Constitutional right of habeus corpus severly limited.

Constitutional right to a fair trial and competitent legal representation limited.

And so on.

[drake]

Che, while I appreciate your expertise, what you just said means nothing to me!

I'm really looking for something that effects your common law abiding citizen. Most of these things relate to the treatment of criminals, which is quite honestly, very low on my priority list.

Tell, me, as a result of these infringements, how your every day citizen (as in one who doesnt commit crimes ) is losing out. Tell me how I am losing out! Tell me how YOU are losing out!

[General Ludd]

You don't have to be a criminal to be suspected.

[chequita guevara]

Loss of 4th Amendment protections reulted in me being stopped and searched by the police. I was doing nothing illegal, just walking around after dark with my best friend who was heading out to the West Coast the next day. I was 24 at the time, as was my buddy. We weren't tresspassing or smoking or drinking, suddenly three police cars are surrounding me and my buddy and going through our things.

Most of the other rights do affect innocent people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The loss of Habeus Corpus has caused the SCUSA to rule that innocence is no defense against imprisonment. Because of the 1996 Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, you only have a small number of years to introduce new evidence. People who have introduced exonerating evidence after that time (2 years IIRC) have to spend out their term, even though they proved that they didn't committ the crime. According to SCUSA, they had a fair trial, and that's all they are entitled.

So hope you aren't one of the huge number of innocent people who go to prison. And with one out of every 100 Americans in the penal system, your odds are better of being convicted of something you didn't do than being in a terrorist event.

[Guynemer]

I can't say that I'm stunned by this move by Shrub, but I am quite stunned by the reactions of a few of the people here.

Frodo hit it right on the head. A few of you are saying, "So what, they're terrorists, they don't deserve rights." Even if that were accepted, you're missing the bigger picture--what of the innocent people accused of terrorism and put on trial under these new guidelines? What realistic chance do they have of proving their innocence before a military tribunal? There's about an equal chance of the Carolina Panthers winning the Super Bowl this season.

Calm your emotions for a minute and remember why we have a Constitution. To protect the rights of criminals? No. To protect the rights of the accused? Absolutely.

[Victor Galis]

You know, at this rate, by 2004 Generalissimo Bush will just cancel the election

I mean seriously. It's been what, 2 months, and civil liberties took a bigger blow that they have in past decades.

[Lonestar]

Oh Please, and of course, none of the ACP memembers here remember that when various states o f emergency ended in this country (starting with the Civil War, all the way up to WW2) everything went right back to normal!

Sit down and chill. Countrary to Most furriners beliefs, America is a Democracy. We do pride ourselves on Peaceful,if not always smooth, transitions in government policies.