Sweden: Paradise on Earth?

[Combat Ingrid]

Berz: True, the Russians got pounded bad in the beginning, but as me, Pekka and others try to say, it was a very complex situation for us. No matter if we stayed neutral, attacked Germany, or attacked the USSR, we would have done the morally wrong thing, depending on who you ask. Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Berzerker]

Had they attacked Germans, it would have become SUPER complex situation. It's nto that simple really.

No doubt, but imagine 2 invasions - the allies in Italy or France and the Scandinavias in Norway, Denmark or even Germany or Prussia.

[Berzerker]

Well, Sweden's government had to look out for Swedes first before others. But I just don't know how y'all figured your safety was ensured with Hitler and Stalin deciding your fate if the west hadn't intervened.

[Pekka]

Yeah imagine everyone jumped on the Germans and Joe sniped Hitler out before he got to his plans. It really would be a complex situation if Sweden had attacked the Germans. THey would have given up neutrality, Germans in Norway, SU would now want the northern Europe including Sweden AND Norway, because Finland would be the last lock before that and the ones who woudl be accepting German help against them, so they would have wanted their own little blietzkrig in north. Germans would have seen this and wanted to put the pressure in there as well.

Before you know it, you would have had to pull off two landings, in Normandy and in Norway.

Then there's the factors that we can't count. And what would have we been supposed to do. Hitler would have pressured us to fight Sweden, which we would have denied, that could have endangered their material support to us, leading to our total defeat against SU in matter of days or weeks. Knowing this Hitler would be in a boggle master too, but he would decide to take the northern europe as a whole, as it geographically would make more sense than not, and taking us out earlier than planned.

For us, and Sweden, we don't want SU OR Germany in here.

What Sweden did was now, retrospectively looking maybe the ONLY right decision, even if it didn't seem right at the moment for many others.

[Ted Striker]

Naked Finn division cannot be overrun

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by Pekka
For us, and Sweden, we don't want SU OR Germany in here.

I'm off to breach neutrality and invade my bed

[Berzerker]

SU would now want the northern Europe including Sweden AND Norway,

SU couldn't even get passed the Finns, they weren't about to attack a Sweden that declared war on the Germans who were flooding a 1,000 miles of Russia. And there was no way the west would have "given" up Norway and Sweden in any post war negotiations, the Russians might not have even got back their own country by the time Germany fell.

that could have endangered their material support to us, leading to our total defeat against SU in matter of days or weeks.

Finland wasn't at war with SU when Germany invaded as far as I know, you're much more qualified to speak on that though. I understood Russia invaded Finland very early on and was stopped and "peace" was made. The 2nd attempt came in "44? once Russia recovered and figured Finland either deserved some kind of payback or worried about a Finnish sneak attack while it was off invading Poland and Germany. Anyway, the Russian invasion force was quickly diverted to the west and another truce was made.

[Pekka]

"SU couldn't even get passed the Finns, they weren't about to attack a Sweden that declared war on the Germans who were flooding a 1,000 miles of Russia. And there was no way the west would have "given" up Norway and Sweden in any post war negotiations, the Russians might not have even got back their own country by the time Germany fell.
"

Guessing, guessing, guessing. Finland wasn't exactly playing with the SU as much as they were trying to survive the onslaught. They did, fortunately, but it wasn't very sure thing you know. There were several days and weeks and months, where the onslaught and major offensives could have snapped our backs like a twig in storm. No one knew what would happen, no one.

They wouldn't have attacked Sweden if they declared war on Germany, right. Guessing.

And SU is supposed to believe Germany cant' take out Sweden? What about making sure about that. These big powers weren't exactly allying themselves with bunch of countries, rather sweeping and taking control. They didn't actually take leap of faiths.

Would they have given Sweden the promise not to come and 'strengthen' their forces fighting Germany, that would have meant coming through us. Do you honestly think SU would have had lots of problems with Sweden's moral dilemma? Not really. But knowing it, they would have instead more likely sweep through, had they got pass us and had Germans be in Sweden. You suggest Sweden would have passed the waters and land in there? And Germany would have not attacked Sweden via Norway?

Germans in Finland already? It's not really that simple.

[Pekka]

No, first one started in 1939, ended in 1940. In the meantime everyone was gearing up for more, and war was evident. The next one started in 1941 and lasted to 1944. The actual non-shooting face was really short.

[Agathon]

The British Home Fleet and other elements of the Royal Navy sail down the west coast of Britain, out of range of the Luftwaffe and still under friendly air cover. The Admiralty times the fleet movement such that the Home Fleet will enter German air cover during the night, and will cover much of the distance to the Kriegsmarine transport concentrations (such as they are) while the Luftwaffe can't really strike.

Have you ever seen the English Channel? It isn't very wide. You can go there and back again in a pretty short time.

If the Home Fleet were caught anywhere near the channel while the Germans had air superiority, it's good night nurse. They knew this themselves.

[David Floyd]

What's your point? Mine is that combined with a final RAF sortie, and properly utilizing the cover of darkness, the RN could survive long enough to seriously disrupt the invasion.

In addition to the major units of the Home Fleet, also think about ships smaller than destroyers - patrol boats, torpedo boats, motor launches, etc., that could be used to disrupt the mix-matched Kriegsmarine invasion fleet.

The Luftwaffe just would not be able to paste everything quick enough to prevent the Brits from destroying the invasion fleet. Britain would come out of the affair minus most of it's navy and airforce, true, but the Germans would have lost most of their's, as well, along with their airborne forces and a few high-quality infantry divisions stranded in England. What would hurt the most, though, would have been the likelyhood of an immediate American response.

[monolith94]

Anyone here ever seen Lilya 4-Ever?

Trouble in paradise.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Empire costs money too... If you think my critique of the Swedish welfare state is an endorsement of the US Congress you must be confusing me with a Republicrat.

Perhaps

My point is though a country with a low tax rate isn't doing so hot, either.

Originally posted by Berzerker
You said Sweden might have been worse off wrt a brain drain without its system and asked me to prove you wrong. I did, by pointing out the US success at benefitting from brain drains. Even the article identified the brain drain as a problem for Sweden...

The US benefitted from brain drains is not a counter to my point, i.e., Sweden might have been worse off with less equality.

You need to realise scientists and scholars aren't really attracted to money per se, but with access to things such as advanced instruments and lots of research material.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Did I say the hypocrisy of Euros who make that argument is proof of Sweden's problems? You did the mixing, not me.

?

I don't at all see where you are going or saying.

First you make a sweeping remark about what make the swedish economic system of the last 50 years or so fail. The only thing of importance should be the war and the catch up there after. I challenge your ability to make such a judgement. As a response you actually admit that your only source of information is the article in the first post and then you again explain to me and everyone what makes the swedish economy tick. And this goes on... You also seem to mix up the state of the swedish economy with your own moral indignation over Swedish foreign policy during the second world war. (apples and oranges).

As for the last post, I have no clue at all what that has to do with anything.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Berzerker

Finland wasn't at war with SU when Germany invaded as far as I know, you're much more qualified to speak on that though. I understood Russia invaded Finland very early on and was stopped and "peace" was made. The 2nd attempt came in "44? once Russia recovered and figured Finland either deserved some kind of payback or worried about a Finnish sneak attack while it was off invading Poland and Germany. Anyway, the Russian invasion force was quickly diverted to the west and another truce was made.

Didn't I already inform you in this thread that Finland took advantage of Germany's sneak attack in 1941, and teamed up with Germany to regain the territory they lost in the Winter War? Then they made peace in 44 when Germany was pushed back to its borders, so that SU could focus the efforts on Germany.

But this has nothing to do with the thread topic.