Sweden: Paradise on Earth?

[Berzerker]

If the USA had not been there to check Europe's bad boys, Sweden would have been swallowed up by the Nazis or Russians. Those two countries conquered or controlled almost all of Europe, there is just no way Sweden would have retained autonomy without a fight. And it wasn't just that Sweden could enjoy the savings in budget priorities, Sweden got rich because of all the damage to other countries. Once they recovered, Sweden lost its advantage and is slipping in wealth due to its autocratic economic system.

[Agathon]

I assure you, this would have happened, and I assure you that enough elements of the Home Fleet would have survived to crush any German amphibious forces in the Channel and isolate any German forces in England.

You must be joking. The lesson of WWII is that surface ships cannot hope to hold out against air power. Why do you think that the British were so desperate to stop the Bismarck before it reached air cover provided by German naval bombers?

Get a clue man, the wrecks of the Prince of Wales and Repulse are testament to what would have happened had the Home Fleet attempted to defend the Channel in the face of German air superiority.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Berzerker
If the USA had not been there to check Europe's bad boys, Sweden would have been swallowed up by the Nazis or Russians. Those two countries conquered or controlled almost all of Europe, there is just no way Sweden would have retained autonomy without a fight. And it wasn't just that Sweden could enjoy the savings in budget priorities, Sweden got rich because of all the damage to other countries. Once they recovered, Sweden lost its advantage and is slipping in wealth due to its autocratic economic system.

Did you read my last post at all? Our goverment spendings did not exlude the military. And our Nordic neighbours are rich despite war damage, NATO membership AND welfare systems.

[Agathon]

Once they recovered, Sweden lost its advantage and is slipping in wealth due to its autocratic economic system.

But it is still doing better than the United States. Read the opening post. These are the facts.

[Kitschum]

Interrupting the ww2 discussion for a moment... Tt's a good, well balanced article. A bit on the long side, though.

I have some small quibbles (eg. Mauricio Rojas libertarian??) but they don't really lead anywhere. It deserves to be said again that the Swedish model is/was hardly socialism. The government barely dipped their toes inyo socialization of the economy, and that's a closed chapter nowadays anyway. Commitment to free markets and free competition is as strong as most anywhere else. Generous health benefits to workers or whatever doesn't enter into that. My impression is that Britain, France, Italy all had more "socialized" economies than Sweden, looking back on the post-war period.

Like the article implies, Sweden is an example of the "virtues" of political stability. There are two points to this:

1. A rare cultural (-> institutional) homogeneity, which is indeed founded in a quite brutal history of centralization and Swedification of fringe areas going back to the 16th-17th C, as well as sparse population and relative isolation.

2. The agreement of cooperation between unions and employers leading to a virtually conflict-free labor political environment, especially true in the critical period from ww2 till the 70s. The almost as important flipside is the government's in turn favoring, legislative and sometimes otherwise, of a couple of established big companies.

The communists were the true pariahs of Swedish politics, and for good reason, because labor consensus was/is a critical condition for the existence of Swedish model. The communists disturbed that peace (or it was feared that they would). That's also the reason for the wide-spread and natural Social democratic party/Police intelligence cooperation in secretly registering communists during the cold war (the IB scandal).

To return to the former paragraph, a perhaps obvious cost has been to stifle the growth of small businesses, which is one of the problems facing present Sweden because these are often the vital "creators" of new jobs. Ideas and inventions certainly aren't lacking, but their development is.

Another problem, that I don't know whether the article mentioned or not, is low social mobility. I remember a recent study about the lack of correlation between income and "fortune" for the vast majority (80 % ?) of Swedish families, excluding the extremes. Which means that working your way up to success is, if not impossible, infeasible for most.

Oh yeah, food is bad and expensive and the climate is dark and not-hot. And hope you like trees. The bit about the gorgeous women is still true though...

[Agathon]

Sorry Kitschum.

I'm sure that was an interesting post, but I couldn't finish it. I can't read two lines of anything about Sweden without thinking of being in a Swedish princess boob sandwich.

Still, it does mean that I never get to think anything bad about your country.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Agathon
Sorry Kitschum.

I'm sure that was an interesting post, but I couldn't finish it. I can't read two lines of anything about Sweden without thinking of being in a Swedish princess boob sandwich.

Still, it does mean that I never get to think anything bad about your country.

Where were you all when her sister (our future Queen) studied in Stamford, CT?

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by Agathon
Sorry Kitschum.

I'm sure that was an interesting post, but I couldn't finish it. I can't read two lines of anything about Sweden without thinking of being in a Swedish princess boob sandwich.

Still, it does mean that I never get to think anything bad about your country.

Naturally I forgive you. If you're interested in a short version, just read the first, the third and the last paragraphs.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Berzerker
A fart in the wind... And a silent one at that...just like Sweden's silence during WWII.

Euros want to trash the USA but get real thin skinned when the history of their country ain't exactly a beacon of morality either.

You're mixing apples and oranges. Are you trying to make a fruit salad?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Berzerker
No doubt Pekka, I have more faith in people than governments so I'd expect the Swedish Joe Blow to hate kissing Nazi a@@, but the war might have ended earlier without the Soviets grabbing half of Europe if the Swedes joined in after Barbarosa slowed to a halt.

You're seriously overestimating Sweden's military strength in 1941/42. They Germans estimated, in 1943, that the occupational forces in Norway alone should be enough to, should it become necessary, defeat and occupy Sweden, and while that might have been overly optimistic, it does say something about the relative strengths.

The amusing bit is that we might have ended up fighting against Finland in a such scenario ...

[GePap]

Originally posted by David Floyd

True, yet the Chinese and Vietnamese were historical enemies - it was only natural that they would act against each other. Hell, the Chinese even invaded Vietnam in the late 1970s.

Again, though, a lack of US influence would almost certainly have led to a much increased Soviet influence over Southeast Asia.

And yet, after the US was defeated and forced to leave AND Vietnam stopped China and got rid of the psycho-maoist Khmer Rougue regime, all the Soviets got in South East Asia was naval bases, which did nothing to shift the international balance.

[Last Conformist]

Kitschum wrote:
Another problem, that I don't know whether the article mentioned or not, is low social mobility. I remember a recent study about the lack of correlation between income and "fortune" for the vast majority (80 % ?) of Swedish families, excluding the extremes. Which means that working your way up to success is, if not impossible, infeasible for most.

While true, it's worth noting that, again according to The Economist, the correlation between the income of fathers and that of their sons is higher in the US than in Sweden.

[Arrian]

My only addition to this thread is a big for the Swedish Royal family. If the only thing of worth credited to their name is the current princess, then they outscore the rest of the world's monarchies combined

-Arrian

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Kitschum wrote:
Another problem, that I don't know whether the article mentioned or not, is low social mobility. I remember a recent study about the lack of correlation between income and "fortune" for the vast majority (80 % ?) of Swedish families, excluding the extremes. Which means that working your way up to success is, if not impossible, infeasible for most.

While true, it's worth noting that, again according to The Economist, the correlation between the income of fathers and that of their sons is higher in the US than in Sweden.

I must've missed that reference. Which article/issue, please?

[Kropotkin]

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